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  1. #71
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Natrushka View Post
    Freaky. I was planning on doing this yesterday (for my husband, not you, pt!).
    Awwwwww

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhash View Post
    I'm not sure if you guys are getting my sense of humor. In all seriousiness, I often send off a note afterwards, too. Especially upon reflection.
    Heh, right back at cha! I was kidding around for the most part. I find INTJs very devoted to stuff like that, but the stereotype is that they are cold fish with no clue how to express their emotions. Writing love letters does not seem like an INTJ thing, yet it seems like it's pretty common (from the few that I know, even males!).

    Though they do sometimes need a bit of prompting. Perhaps it's better to say that balanced INTJs seem to do it.

    I've never written one in my life!

  2. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I've been floating around various MBTI related websites since I found out about MBTI in 2004. One thing I have consistently, without fail noticed is the distinct vein of antipathy towards Ss, particularly SJs.

    First of all, I'm sick of intuitives acting like they're some more evolved human being that if only the pissant little Ss that populate the world would disappear they would have some type of utopia on earth. Oh, we could keep a few around to pick up the garbage (ISTJs I suppose) and fix our cars (ISTPs?), but the rest can all die.

    Yes, yes, I know you're so misunderstood. No one understands what a complex intuitive you are. You're so developed and can't be bothered with anything sensor related. And then some people put their 95% N score in their sig like it's significant or something. Check this out...if you are unable to get along with the most of the Ss you meet I dare say they are not the problem. If you find yourself blaming your difficulties in getting along with a person or group of people on "they're an S," Run, don't walk, to the your nearest library or bookstore and make a beeline to the self-help section.

    Then we have the fact that intuitives can't withstand the cultural hegemony that SJs represent. They encroach upon your life so much and crush your fragile soul. You should emerge a diamond. I'm beginning to think that SJs are not the unreasonable ones. Where is your stamina and perseverance? I wonder what type has those qualities on tap? What was with Muhammed and that mountain again? When I encounter SJs that are so rigid that they won't bend even if it would benefit them (and that's very rare), I just leave them alone. I don't stew, I don't get angry. Even other SJs think they're crazy. It's actually kinda funny to me. And of course, intuitives never display such behavior.

    Everyone is programmed. Don't think you aren't just because you're intuitive. Most people don't realize they're programmed (Ns included). Even when people become aware of their programming they don't bother to change it (Ns included). And if you do become aware of your programming and you want to change it all you're doing is choosing another program. Once again, get over yourself.

    And if anyone is worried about appearing inauthentic, please believe it's me. When I get around different types of people, sometimes I don't even recognize myself. But I know who I am at my core and I don't worry anymore. When it's appropriate and I'm around a bunch of SJs, I say what the fuck I want to and act how I want. At best I'll get a you're so silly and at worst I'll get a dirty look. Don't think I haven't encountered that SJ mentality I hear people complaining about. When it's wrong, it feels insurmountable. But when is it ever right? I never read Ns giving SJs their due credit. All I hear is they won't let me be me !!

    And I just love how whenever someone's having a problem with another person, they give their type as if that's the reason. Rarely does anyone approach the problem from an individual level. And then we give advice addressing their type and not their person. Most advice fits with most people. Who doesn't want to feel acknowledged and appreciated? Who doesn't want to hear a job well done or a thank you? Who doesn't want to be left alone sometimes (yes even Extroverts feel that way once in a blue moon).

    I wish more intuitives would be critical of themselves and not SJs. Maybe some of the problems intuitives have with them would be eliminated if the blaming would stop. There are problems endemic to being human. No amount of Jungian typology is going to erase that. Once you're dead, you won't have to worry about it, so that should be your twinkling light at the end of the tunnel. DEATH.

    And you know when the end comes, and it's all about survival I'm finding the closest ESTJ or ISTP I can lay my hands on and offering my ovaries. I think I'd have better chances and start the newer and improved next generation of Ns.

    you have a point

    however

    when I hang around with my sensor friends, I do personally find them ignorant and prone to getting things wrong a lot, that I simply wouldn't get wrong. they think i'm wierd, I think they're annoying. I CAN'T HELP THAT.

    but I still like them on some level too because they usually mean well.

    I don't feel they personally do me any ill, but I do think it's their kinds of attitudes that allow the world to be worse than it oculd be

    though who knows, the worst evils in the world have mostly been planned by intuitives and only carried out by sensors

    so maybe it's all natures plan

    However I can't help the fact that they do largely cause me problems by just not getting the things I want to say, and by being so observant and "sharp" that they can't overlook small errors in a sentence or slips of the tongue, but have no interest in the concept.

    put a group of sensors in a room full of intuitives and find me one that won't eventually get exasperated?

    however I do overall see what you are saying, people should stop whining about the world and instead accept that socieities conventions and sensorish activities exist for a reason, and that if they can't see the reason for "arbitrary" or "irrational" things, then maybe that's a flaw in their intuition and not those things

    I'm not saying people should just accept mainstream conventions but if they want to criticise them they should first recognise the reason for them and try to work out "do I really want to challenge this or would I better off to go along with it", instead of just lash out for the sake of it.

    But yes sometimes I do lash out for the sake of it also, because even though I hate whining in other people, I enjoy doing it myself...go figure...and ironically protean you are whining here too...maybe you should go to a self-help bookshop to help you deal with narcissistic intuititive types...because, like other kinds of people, they too have some validity for their actions and explanations for their flaws and usually began out well meaning even if they just became whining cynics, so maybe you could ifnd a way to bring out the best in them instead of lambast them, as, even thought heir critical attitude may overlook the rationale for some of the things they criticise, perhaps also someone who dismisses them out of hand is ignoring some of the vailidity to the things that narcissistic intuitive is saying, and is therefore as bad as them.
    dead man talking

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Qui Parla View Post
    you have a point

    however....

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Heh, right back at cha! I was kidding around for the most part. I find INTJs very devoted to stuff like that, but the stereotype is that they are cold fish with no clue how to express their emotions. Writing love letters does not seem like an INTJ thing, yet it seems like it's pretty common (from the few that I know, even males!).
    It's just that INTJs express it differently. If you can get past the initial mask, you will find that an INTJ is tender beyond belief. They express it non-verbally or through their writing. It just takes work to get past the mask and most people don't want to work that hard to do so. Most people just don't think it's worth the effort. That's what I find when I deal with most of my NT friends. What loyal friends they are, too! They are always there when you need them.

    I remember working on a committee with this guy (an INTJ but I didn't know it then) and thinking that it was painful talking to him and being with him. I immediately thought, "This guy's a real cold fish". I know that I'm an INTJ, too, but I happen to be more extraverted and welcoming of people. It was the way I was socialized. Anyway, I didn't give up hope about him and I finally broke through to him. I was pleasantly surprised when he finally took off the mask. WOW! Much to my surprise was this wonderful, tender loving man. I thought to myself, "He's not at all like I had imagined".

  5. #75
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Qui Parla View Post
    ...
    Yeah I have a point and you completely missed it. But continue on with your SJ bashing support group.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  6. #76
    Senior Member Lookin4theBestNU's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix
    Yeah I have a point and you completely missed it.
    "At points of clarity, I realize that my life on earth is meaningless, and that I am merely a pawn in a bigger game. A game I cannot possibly understand or have control of. Thankfully, before depression sets in, I drift back into my cloudy, bewildered daily routine." **Joel Patrick Warneke**

  7. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Yeah I have a point and you completely missed it. But continue on with your SJ bashing support group.
    who am I bashing?

    I think you missed my point.

    people are different, do you expect me to get on with everyone I meet? is it always my fault, by default, if I don't get on with someone? is it wrong to ever crystalise the problem into MBTI type rather than reel off a long list of problems which just come down to "duh...that's N vs S".

    do you expect every sensor to get on with everyone they meet? or just N's? or do you just not want to hear about any bad experiences I might have, because as a point of pride you don't like "whiners"...in which case...don't read them, and stop whining about them yourself!...some people might use the internet to let loose some frustration, and then go and be reasonable in real life.
    dead man talking

  8. #78
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    Just for the heck of it, I'm going to put my own spin on this. I'll inevitably do it in my own roundabout INFP way. And the subject is kind of a tangent; but maybe it will broaden the discussion a bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I wonder how many Ss come to MBTI forums or lists because they're interested in type and they see how they're viewed and they never post or lurk. How many wonderful conversations haven't been had because of this? I don't think there will even be a large S presence on MBTI website because Ns won't allow it.
    I agree with Proteanmix's point here. The mods and admins have indicated once or twice that they would prefer a broader mix of MBTI personality types here and that they would specifically like to see more SP and SJ members. If iNtuitives are routinely trivializing Sensors or blaming them for everything that's wrong with the world, that's obviously going to be a deterrent to the recruitment of Sensor members.

    On the other hand, this is an MBTI-oriented message board and we tend not to tiptoe around MBTI differences here. Introverts bash Extraverts for being gabby and brain-dead. Extraverts blame Introverts for not trying hard enough to reach out to others and they have no sympathy for the social woes of Introverts. NTs call NFs oversensitive wimps, and NFs call NTs cold and cruel. And so on. We all know the stereotypes, and we regularly exploit them for laughs and occasionally use them to take a dig at other members.

    In this kind of atmosphere, it's going to be tough to impose a consensus on how to deal with MBTI stereotypes about Ss.

    My own personal opinion: I wish people would go easy when using negative MBTI stereotypes. For instance, I don't much like the "Name 3 things that suck about NTs/NFs/SPs/SJs" threads because of the put-down nature of those threads. But on the other hand, I can also see the argument that this is an MBTI message board and it's better to get the stereotypes out in the open as part of a frank discussion of MBTI subjects.

    Also, some folks may remember that when I was participating at INTP-Central I complained about the name and description of the non-INTP forum; but that was because I thought the management over there crossed a line when it institutionalized typism by making it part of the formal message board structure. (INTP-C management apparently disagreed, and that's their prerogative.) On the other hand, I personally don't mind it so much when other individual members bash INFPs. I can give as good as I get. Besides, INFPs have strengths of their own; I can sit out the threads where I'm weak and then jump into a thread that fits my strengths and dominate it, and good luck to any of my detractors who might challenge me on my own turf.

    Anyway, the point of those last two paragraphs is that I can see arguments both for and against allowing Ns to air their personal grievances about Ss. I don't really feel strongly either way.

    Meantime, I also keep in mind that (in my experience) Ss tend to have a lot of disdain for ditzy, schizy, whiny, N dilettantes. From the Sensor point of view, Ss are the sober, experienced adults, while Ns are the idealistic starry-eyed teenagers of the world.

    Ns brainstorm and fantasize about how nice it would be to get rid of all cars in order to reduce the greenhouse effect. Meantime Ss are laughing at the Ns and shaking their heads, because the Ss just finished a shift working as part of a team of cops and paramedics untangling a high-speed six-car pile-up on the highway. It's all fine and dandy to brainstorm about life 50 years from now, but in the meantime someone needs to have a Sensor's mastery of observation, detail, and procedure and the presence of mind to handle the real-life emergencies happening on the roads right now.

    Ns bitch and moan about globalization issues or the white-collar rat race or the paper chase in bureaucracies. Meanwhile, S admin and management specialists laugh at the dilettante Ns who have no idea what they're talking about. The S specialists have read through thousands of pages of corporate directives, administered pension funds, granted education allowances for dependents, worked up merit allocation coefficients for pay increases for employees, sat on grievance tribunals for disgruntled workers, audited budgets for departments, etc. They know the corporations aren't going to disappear anytime soon, and they know why.

    MBTI stereotypes cut both ways. Ns tend to see themselves as visionaries and they see Ss as dreary, unimaginative, fussy drudges. But in my experience Ss tend to see themselves as responsible, clear-eyed, sensible adults and they see Ns as oblivious, whiny, teenaged dilettantes. And in that light, name-calling may only be a facet of a larger problem.

    I sometimes wonder what Ss think about the discussions that take place here on MBTI-Central. There's a lot of whacked-out, dimwitted theorizing about how nice it would be to kill off big portions of the population, get rid of organized religion, get rid of the corporations, etc. As the real-world "adults" of the MBTI spectrum, Ss probably aren't going to have much to say in such discussions. And even when discussions are more down-to-earth and results-oriented, Ns frequently discount any first-person experience as anecdotal, a mere snapshot of a point in time having no bearing on future trends. So you get a big disconnect between the Ss with their excellent powers of observation and first-hand experience of the world vs. the Ns who deal in overviews and theories and only want to discuss broad trends and future developments.

    I think the name-calling may be a symptom of this larger disconnect in world view. Adults live in the present and take rules and schedules seriously; teens are oriented toward the future and value idealism more than a paycheck. Adults get in a rut and lose sight of the possibilities; teens are blind to the line between sense and nonsense because they've never had to put their money where their mouth is. If adults and teens refuse to consider each other's point of view, then they aren't going to enjoy each other's company. Mutual name-calling may be a complication, but it's not necessarily at the root of what's keeping them apart.

    On the positive side, some Ss continue to post over here, perhaps to broaden their own horizons and learn about Ns, and perhaps to remind Ns that a real world exists out there and recount some first-hand experience to help Ns bring their theories back down to earth and anchor them in reality. And in the meantime by participating on a mixed-type message board Ns presumably indicate that they are open to opposing views, at least in theory.

    If the quantity of Ss ever reaches critical mass, we'll probably see more name-calling rather than less. As I said above, in my experience Ss tend to have a lot of disdain for ditzy, schizy, whiny N dilettantes. It doesn't always come out as irritation; sometimes Ss feel positively paternal and protective toward the loopy, occasionally-brilliant, occasionally-vulnerable Ns. But inevitably there is going to be irritation and defensiveness, and frictions on the message board are going to lead to abuse of stereotypes and some fireworks at times.

    Hopefully in the long run everyone can remember that this is a mixed-type message board, understand that the traditional stereotypes aren't going to disappear anytime soon, not get too worked up when the stereotypes are abused, and remember to stay open to other viewpoints.

    Just my own opinion, of course.

    FL

  9. #79
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    Just my own opinion, of course.
    I... uh... I... give me a second... I love you man. I really do. That was all kinds of awesome.

  10. #80
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    Wisdom of the ages
    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I... uh... I... give me a second... I love you man. I really do. That was all kinds of awesome.
    I'll second that.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

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