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  1. #31
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I'm going to interject here and say that this is absolutely the trend. Almost every negative attribute that someone has ends up being "a type thing". Parents weren't responsible? It's cause they were SPs. Parents dominated you? They were SJs. Parents were perfect? Cause they were NTs (or sometimes NFs, but then you get the flaky NF parent topics sometimes, though sometimes you get the NT cold parent thing, just not at the two centrals).

    There is a huge bias in how people see people when they start applying type... and it happens inside and outside the forum. This is one of the major reasons why general knowledge of type is actually detrimental, rather than the syllabus that the professionals coach with. It's out in spades on these forums... a lot of 'extreme' concepts being introduced into people's frameworks... functional views, something that is rarely useful in group situations, is a good example, as are the concepts of behavioural absolutes being linked to cognitive theory.

    ...

    In any case, this is one of the reasons why it wasn't used at my workplace.
    This is one reason why I really don't want to teach type in an HR setting. The interesting parts of type come into play after the basic introduction.

    I've also heard the same biases from some HR trainers, which really bothers me.
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Whaling is illegal in Oklahoma.

  2. #32
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    @ spirilis

    How would you even know the reason why you don't keep in touch or the problems you had/have is because of S or N if it weren't for MBTI? What would you have attributed it to? And I find many threads about what a scourge upon humanity (yes I know I'm being dramatic) SJs are childish myself.

    I don't want to go into the whole MBTI is just a tool thing because I hope we all realize that. It's when people start deciding that S and N (orare the reasons they have for problems and don't seek any further.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
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  3. #33
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    I introduced my parents to type this weekend. When I explained S:N, mom said, "So Sensors are blue collar and the others are white collar."

    In my family, blue collar=respectable / hard-working / honest and white-collar=suspicious / conniving / fluffy. If you can't use information in a practical way, then it is useless.

    That was an interesting concept to straighten out. But I could see how she'd make that leap.
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Whaling is illegal in Oklahoma.

  4. #34
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rivercrow View Post
    I introduced my parents to type this weekend. When I explained S:N, mom said, "So Sensors are blue collar and the others are white collar." In my family, blue collar=respectable / hard-working / honest and white-collar=suspicious / conniving / fluffy. If you can't use information in a practical way, then it is useless.
    What's funny is how much baggage we bring into conversations like that without realizing it: When I read your mother's analogy, I automatically assumed that the "blue collar" comment would be the insult.

    But then again, I would definitely be lumped as "white collar."

    We all have a spin on the data.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    @ spirilis

    How would you even know the reason why you don't keep in touch or the problems you had/have is because of S or N if it weren't for MBTI? What would you have attributed it to?
    Even though this is directed at someone else....Speaking for myself, before I knew about N verses S I tended to believe my mother's opinion that I was wrong and utterly flawed to be the way I was and I was always fighting against it, trying to change and not being able to and feeling like a failure for it.

    Being able to have a label for the difference and being able to study about what it is and is not makes it easier to see what I can do to be more in touch and what I can do to make more of the N part of me.

  6. #36
    heart on fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by rivercrow View Post


    I introduced my parents to type this weekend. When I explained S:N, mom said, "So Sensors are blue collar and the others are white collar."

    In my family, blue collar=respectable / hard-working / honest and white-collar=suspicious / conniving / fluffy. If you can't use information in a practical way, then it is useless.

    That was an interesting concept to straighten out. But I could see how she'd make that leap.
    My MIL's answer to being introduced to the idea of N verses S was to ask "So what can they do to fix these N types?" She had a simiar reaction to the idea of Introversion as well. :rolli:

  7. #37
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    What's funny is how much baggage we bring into conversations like that without realizing it: When I read your mother's analogy, I automatically assumed that the "blue collar" comment would be the insult.

    But then again, I would definitely be lumped as "white collar."

    We all have a spin on the data.
    Yeah -- just goes to show that we all think differently.

    Oh, I am the black sheep of the family with that degree in English Literature. Even though my siblings are a pharmacist and RN/audiologist respectively, my parents seem to view their activities as "skilled trade," I think because they do practical things -- dispensing drugs, resolving hearing problems.

    Dad kept complaining that all the type stuff was interesting theory but pretty useless until I showed him some uses (for instance, Keirsey's argument that kids are probably SPs and need SP-targeted teaching methods rather than being ADD/ADHD and needing drugs).
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Whaling is illegal in Oklahoma.

  8. #38
    Senior Membrane spirilis's Avatar
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    I would have attributed it to "unknown," or more likely, invented a reason. (eg "We just didn't hang out that much anyway" or something similar)

    How would I know the reasoning behind our lack of contact was due to S/N? I wouldn't. What I am saying, is that I have noticed a correlation--the ones I have kept in contact after 7+ years are N's (INFP, INTJ, ENFP, ENFJ to be specific), with the exception of one ESTP, and many of the others I recall (ISTJ, ISTP, ESFJ, ESFJ, ESTJ, xNFJ, INFJ) I've lost contact.
    Correlation does not equal causation, so they say, so I can guarantee there are reasons for this way beyond personality type compatibility. And still, the sample size is too small to consider this a coherent pattern, although one does seem to show.

    I agree that using type as an explanation for one person's behavior or issues is not okay, as it is a shallow and ambiguous reason, bordering on discriminatory, especially when correlation among an entire subgroup (eg S's) is linked with causation of such behaviors.

  9. #39
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Even though this is directed at someone else....Speaking for myself, before I knew about N verses S I tended to believe my mother's opinion that I was wrong and utterly flawed to be the way I was and I was always fighting against it, trying to change and not being able to and feeling like a failure for it.

    Being able to have a label for the difference and being able to study about what it is and is not makes it easier to see what I can do to be more in touch and what I can do to make more of the N part of me.
    And I have no problem with finally having a vocabulary to describe these differences. But when Ns turn around and do the same things they complain SJs do to them, then everything turns ugly and destructive and MBTI does more harm than good.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  10. #40
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    My MIL's answer to being introduced to the idea of N verses S was to ask "So what can they do to fix these N types?" She had a simiar reaction to the idea of Introversion as well. :rolli:
    Mom had a similar comment about type generally -- she's definitely from the "nurture" school. Surprisingly, dad leapt in with comments about brain wiring and nature.

    That's when I pulled out my collection of physiological correlations.

    I have to admit, the whole afternoon was more pleasant and interesting than I had anticipated. On the whole, my parents don't have use for silly theory, but by the time I left, mom was trying to figure out how to approach her pastor's wife.
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Whaling is illegal in Oklahoma.

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