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  1. #101
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Stop avoiding the questions and making trite, quippy remarks.
    I wasn't avoiding any question, this whole thread has been about what I think the problem with intuitives is. You seem to reject that and at every turn say how you've been ostracized your life and how much Sensors don't get you. Would you like me to say you're a beautiful and unique snowflake and no one in the world is like you?

    And I'm hardly one to make trite and quippy remarks, I'll leave that to ITPs.

    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Again, why should people who felt that these traits were part of their personality make up need to eliminate these aspects from their own view of their identity to begin with? How could someone who didn't see themselves as having those N traits as part of their personal image before MBTI come up N on the MBTI to begin with?

    Should people who know themselves as thinkers feel that they need to eliminate those aspects from their own personal view of their identity?

    Why single out intuition?

    ETA. Doesn't the MBTI describe SP as creative? Aren't ISFP for one described as dreamy and creative?
    I'm not advocating anyone eliminate any trait from their personality (except the feeling of superiority, I think people should get right on that one). I don't deny that there's such thing as Sensors and Intuitives and Thinkers and Feelers, etc. My initial point was that a sizable portion of INTUITIVES that frequent MBTI related sites use their INTUITION to claim that they're better than (define it how you will) sensors. They're smarter, less materialistic, free-thinkers, more introspective, more complex, non-conformists, I could go on and on. MBTI has given people a vocabulary and a system to justify why their difference (intuition) places them above the rest of the population. Look at Wolf's and Uberfuhrer's posts above. SJs to fill out paperwork? Expendable labor? I realize those comments were made tongue in cheek ( ), but not when it's done repeatedly. Are you ignoring the obvious?

    You seem to underestimate how suggestible people are. This isn't a simple matter of self-fulfilling prophesy.
    They would have had to already be thinking in those terms or they wouldn't have scored high in the N part to being with. I don't think it has anything to do with MBTI, the way that people think about themselves. It was already part of their indentity.
    So people already need to think that they're creative, intelligent, visionary to score N? Am I understanding you correctly? Are you understanding me correctly? Why would you think those words equal intuitive? What if they are those adjectives and come out sensor? Then what?

    And what does "scoring high" on N mean? I've never understood that. Please explain what it means so I can know what people mean when they say it. I can type into any category I want. I posted about this at another site. Those internet tests are almost meaningless and change depending on your mood and the professional ones don't fare much better.

    How do you all take this cognitive processes test? Can't you tell which questions are referring to which processes? I know which questions are Fi, Ne, Ti, etc. How is this at all reliable?

    Se
    Freely follow your gut instincts and exciting physical impulses as they come up.
    Enjoy the thrill of action and physical experience in the present moment.
    Instantly read visible cues to see just how far you can go.
    Ne
    Offer various unrelated ideas and see what potential they might suggest.
    Enjoy playing with random interconnections and patterns.
    Weave into the current dynamics of a situation aspects of other, random contexts.
    Si
    Notice whether the details in front of you match what you are accustomed to.
    Compare an experience against a storehouse of familiar experiences to find what's reliable.
    Point out discrepancies between how things are and the way they have always been.
    Ni
    Experience a premonition or foresee the distant future.
    Achieve a metamorphosis, definitive insight, or powerful vision of change.
    Gain a profound realization from a mystical state or sudden release of emotions.

    The above is just a sampling, but I'm sure someone sees the patterns to the questions. I'm starting to find these tests to be so predictable. Like choosing the Best Luvr 4 U in Cosmo magazine. I got a real shock once when I took one test and came out ESTP. I retook it till I got the desired ENF result. Then I thought what difference did it make.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  2. #102
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    My understanding of N vs S is something like this:

    N
    Far-sighted, but needs reading glasses.

    Begins with theory, places details into larger context. This is generally done by first observing the 'big picture' and then refining the big picture as the facts come in, but the reference point is always the whole. It is much like beginning a sketch by creating general outlines and shapes and gradually refining the whole. Overall balance and perspective are key, but details can be lost, altering the picture.

    Learns best through theory and abstract thought. Trouble shooting of ideas occurs inside the individual's mind where scenarios are imagined and worked out using internal logic.

    Metaphor and ideas that parallel reality are valued for their ability to communicate on multiple levels, sometimes adding meaning to reality.

    Highly intelligent N's are especially adept at thinking outside the box. Deeply ingrained assumption do not stifle them. They are able to observe interrelationships between details and ideas. Questioning traditional ideas and conceiving of new interrelationships between facts aids in discovering new truth.

    Evaluates others based on their potential, meaning the way in which the current individual relates the the larger context of individuals suggests a likely outcome in the future. Many variables come into play, not only those involving the specific individual.

    Mathematicians, theoretical physicists, philosophers, poets, etc. are examples of N style thought.

    S
    Near-sighted - has no trouble reading, but needs glasses for distance.

    Begins with concrete details to construct whole. Slow to accept new theories that have not been tested. Details, facts are the absolute, the point of reference. Theory only has meaning if it is consistent and accounts for every observable fact. This would be like sketching in pen, starting slowing, filling in every detail perfectly the first time. Once a portion is drawn it is complete and requires no further refining. The larger picture can become distorted if the relationships between details are not consistently observed.

    Learns best through hands on experience and measured observations. Trouble shooting occurs in the concrete world being worked out using external logic so to speak.

    The more closely an idea represents reality, the more meaning it has. I'm guessing that realism will tend to be appreciated more in creative expression.

    Highly intelligent S's are able to absorb vast amounts of facts and details. They can be a walking encyclopedia. Their observation skills can make them excel in science and art because they simply do not miss anything.

    Evaluates others based on their past experience and documentation.

    Applied theory is more the domain of the S occupation.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  3. #103
    heart on fire
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    [QUOTE=proteanmix;30342]
    this whole thread has been about what I think the problem with intuitives is. You seem to reject that and at every turn say how you've been ostracized your life and how much Sensors don't get you.
    I believe what I said was I don't think that N do anything differently towards S than S do towards N in real life. Most of what the N types complain about the S types is when the S types try to change the N types and try to tell them that they are wrong. I do believe that N types are justified in saying that this irritates them and if it hurts the feelings of the S types, I am sure that the S types will make it through.

    I don't think it is a big deal and I don't see the S as being so fragile that it would keep them from coming to this board.


    Would you like me to say you're a beautiful and unique snowflake and no one in the world is like you?
    at your need to turn everything into some sort of cutting personal quip.

    And I'm hardly one to make trite and quippy remarks, I'll leave that to ITPs.
    Now you are the one who is using type to stereotype and ignoring your own traits. Ironic.


    I'm not advocating anyone eliminate any trait from their personality (except the feeling of superiority, I think people should get right on that one). I don't deny that there's such thing as Sensors and Intuitives and Thinkers and Feelers, etc. My initial point was that a sizable portion of INTUITIVES that frequent MBTI related sites use their INTUITION to claim that they're better than (define it how you will) sensors.
    I think that is no different from Thinkers who think they are superior to Feelers or Feelers who think that Thinkers are cold. It is just something that happens when people have a hard time seeing each other's point of view. It is not something especially inate to Ns.


    They're smarter, less materialistic, free-thinkers, more introspective, more complex, non-conformists, I could go on and on. MBTI has given people a vocabulary and a system to justify why their difference (intuition) places them above the rest of the population.
    I think most of them already felt that way before they took the test. They knew they had something different in their way of thinking and they felt it was the better way to think, whether it was or not. MBTI just put a label on the trait of N, a word to call it.

    I don't see how MBTI gives them any justification to think it is a better way to be because the MBTI doesn't pass a value judgment on either S or N or at least I never saw an MBTI that did.


    Look at Wolf's and Uberfuhrer's posts above. SJs to fill out paperwork? Expendable labor? I realize those comments were made tongue in cheek ( ), but not when it's done repeatedly. Are you ignoring the obvious?
    Sure and S types would likely make comments about the N types being dreamers who can't navigate themselves out of bed in the mornings. NT regularly berate the NF as being hysterical smiley users. It is just the nature of these types of differences and boards.

    Also the NT seem to like to make extreme statements to get a rise out of F types.

    So people already need to think that they're creative, intelligent, visionary to score N?
    I think that the traits they see themselves having would have to match to what the N traits questions on the test measure (you put the label of creative on those traits, I didn't see it in the description I linked to). Otherwise they would not answer those questions affirmative.

    Am I understanding you correctly? Are you understanding me correctly? Why would you think those words equal intuitive? What if they are those adjectives and come out sensor? Then what?
    If they are abstract thinkers who get bored with routine and enjoy theory, how could they NOT come out N on the MBTI?

    And what does "scoring high" on N mean? I've never understood that.
    Answering more of the N type questions on the test as compared to S type, then the score comes out higher. I am talking about the real versions of the MBTI not the internet test versions. It can also mean that faced with an N verses S question there is no hesitation, you know firmly which way you go. When it comes to J verses P questions I often just don't know which way to answer, my habits are that variable in those areas.

    Please explain what it means so I can know what people mean when they say it. I can type into any category I want. I posted about this at another site. Those internet tests are almost meaningless and change depending on your mood and the professional ones don't fare much better.
    I am never in a mood where my answers would honestly change on the I or N parts and that's been true for over 19 years since I first took the MBTI. The T-F and J-P parts are less clear for me and are variable and always have been. I suspect that most people have areas where they come out clear cut and areas where it is more gray.

    I am curious, do you get this concerned about the way that some Thinkers believe thinking is superior to feeling? If not, why not? Why is the N-S part so concerning? There are more thinking types out there than N types, why not worry more about them feeling superior?

  4. #104
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    at your need to turn everything into some sort of cutting personal quip.
    My apologies.

    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I am curious, do you get this concerned about the way that some Thinkers believe thinking is superior to feeling? If not, why not? Why is the N-S part so concerning? There are more thinking types out there than N types, why not worry more about them feeling superior?
    Like I said before, read around the MBTI sites and tell me what you see. If you honestly believe that there isn't rampant intuitive superiority complexes then I can't make you see it. People act like it's a chore of Herculean proportions to communicate with sensors in more than superficial circumstances and even those are trying. It's not the same as the difference between T/F, E/I (although I suspect this is in a close second), or J/P. I really don't know how to convince you of it so I'm not going to spin my wheels trying.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  5. #105
    Senior Membrane spirilis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    My apologies.



    Like I said before, read around the MBTI sites and tell me what you see. If you honestly believe that there isn't rampant intuitive superiority complexes then I can't make you see it. People act like it's a chore of Herculean proportions to communicate with sensors in more than superficial circumstances and even those are trying. It's not the same as the difference between T/F, E/I (although I suspect this is in a close second), or J/P. I really don't know how to convince you of it so I'm not going to spin my wheels trying.
    I think you, and everyone who has argued with you, have beat this horse pretty well, way beyond desecrated in its grave even. I, for one, get it (actually I "got" it a couple years ago, having also engaged in the same crap and soon after realizing the fault in my ways, but whatever.) The next question is, what do you want to do about it? Or, if your intent is to catalyze a massive trend away from it (good idea), how shall we begin?

  6. #106
    heart on fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Like I said before, read around the MBTI sites and tell me what you see. If you honestly believe that there isn't rampant intuitive superiority complexes then I can't make you see it. People act like it's a chore of Herculean proportions to communicate with sensors in more than superficial circumstances and even those are trying. It's not the same as the difference between T/F, E/I (although I suspect this is in a close second), or J/P. I really don't know how to convince you of it so I'm not going to spin my wheels trying.
    I see it, but I guess I see it more as venting among people who also understand. I also see that sensors have the same superiority complex about their way. It is not a problem limited to N types, it is a problem of both types not being able to adequately understand each other. Perhaps you are simply more sensitive to it in Ns and therefore see it more often in Ns.

    Sensors often act like it is chore to put up with Ns and they often make no attempt to understand them, that makes it hard to communicate with them.(If it upsets you to hear that I am sorry, perhaps you can make another snide remark about me wanting to be as special as a snowflake or something and you'll feel better. ) N types still find a way to make it through life. I am sure Sensors will do the same even if they had to endure reading that N types actually find them as difficult to deal with as they find N types to deal with.

    How is it not the same as the difference between T and F? Thinkers seem to feel that they have intellectual superiority and Feelers think that they have human development superiority. There is no difference of course and also there are more of these types than N types. Therefore their feelings of superiority would have a greater impact through numbers than N types which make up a smaller part of the population.

  7. #107
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirilis View Post
    I think you, and everyone who has argued with you, have beat this horse pretty well, way beyond desecrated in its grave even. I, for one, get it (actually I "got" it a couple years ago, having also engaged in the same crap and soon after realizing the fault in my ways, but whatever.) The next question is, what do you want to do about it? Or, if your intent is to catalyze a massive trend away from it (good idea), how shall we begin?
    OK, these are the two suggestions I just came up with.

    1. Take your type out of your profile. I don't think your type should be a secret, but by removing your type from your profile you force people to deal with you as an individual and not rely on preconceived notions of what your type "should" act like. This will also force people to pay more attention to your posts and construct your personality (possibly more accurate?) from there instead of taking mental shortcuts about who you are.
    2. When a problem with another type arises, withhold their type until later. I like how Athenian200 handled her "Perceptions of Two Groups" thread. She didn't give any MBTI related labels about who she was talking about, she even qualified it by saying that she wasn't necessarily referring to sensors and intuitives (although people assumed that she did). If you'll notice in that thread she got a wider range of who Group A and B was (family members, friends, coworkers, strangers, opposite sex, same sex) than just a simple S or N. You can slice and dice people in more ways than just S and N.


    See I can be proactive too!
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  8. #108
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    OK
    1. Take your type out of your profile. I don't think your type should be a secret, but by removing your type from your profile you force people to deal with you as an individual and not rely on preconceived notions of what your type "should" act like. This will also force people to pay more attention to your posts and construct your personality (possibly more accurate?) from there instead of taking mental shortcuts about who you are.

    See I can be proactive too!
    I can agree with this.

  9. #109
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    [LIST=1][*]Take your type out of your profile. I don't think your type should be a secret, but by removing your type from your profile you force people to deal with you as an individual and not rely on preconceived notions of what your type "should" act like. This will also force people to pay more attention to your posts and construct your personality (possibly more accurate?) from there instead of taking mental shortcuts about who you are.
    I can agree with this.
    Me too. I just took mine out.

    I was thinking about this the other day, and you know what these sites can be like? A little like a role playing game. When you choose a type, you choose a character. Then there is a set of expectations you are supposed to live up to. You have an assigned set of strengths and weaknesses. When you start to go outside of character, people get uncomfortable. If you change your character/type it almost feels to some like you are breaking the rules. For some it is as elaborate a game as chess. Each chess piece/type is allowed certain moves in a debate. If an NF is more logical than an NT, they have broken the rules. If a T gets emotional it is because they have underdeveloped Fe. If an F gets emotional, it is because they are a subjective thinker. It is all really quite fascinating. Any given post is a bit like a lump of clay that can be molded in a variety of ways based on type assumptions.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  10. #110
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Proteanmix, I can't help but note that for someone taking issue with people looking down upon others, your posts in this thread have a real sense of "set those jackasses straight" to them.

    In regard to not displaying my MBTI type, I'd considered it previously but decided against it. People who are more apt to interact with me as an individual are going to do so regardless of whether or not my MBTI type is listed. People who are going to react to me in accordance with my "type" will serve as edification; in the future when, in my personal life, I find myself interacting with someone and realize that, aha!, this person is reacting to me in accordance with my "type", from having been handled in such a fashion here I will be more able to accurately predict what he is thinking and how the situation will develop.
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

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