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  1. #91
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    Meantime, I also keep in mind that (in my experience) Ss tend to have a lot of disdain for ditzy, schizy, whiny, N dilettantes. From the Sensor point of view, Ss are the sober, experienced adults, while Ns are the idealistic starry-eyed teenagers of the world.
    (We need a jaw-dropping smiley.)

    Epiphanic post, FineLine! Thank you!

    It taps into something I posted over at INTPc (link):

    It seems like the N profiles are written as best cases, whereas the S profiles are written as averages. Sure, there may be a lot of ISTP mechanics out there, but what are my colleagues in business going to find aspirational in that description? If the INTP description was rewritten as an average, it would probably be "The Unemployed Geek" instead of the philosopher-sounding "The Thinker". Similarly, what INTJ doesn't prefer the sound of "The Scientist" to the probably more universal "The Know-It-All"?
    Maybe we are just taking cues from the profiles we have read, but when discussing S/N, it seems like Ns (myself included ) tend to compare average S with ultimate N - thus indirectly taking credit for all N achievements. (Designing the pyramids, anyone? )

    How about we start a thread where people can post what they have actually achieved so far in life and refer people to it whenever the S belittling crosses the line? That might be a reality check for N conceit big and small.

    Edit: Oh, the OP was great too.

  2. #92
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post

    It taps into something I posted over at INTPc (link):



    Maybe we are just taking cues from the profiles we have read, but when discussing S/N, it seems like Ns (myself included ) tend to compare average S with ultimate N - thus indirectly taking credit for all N achievements. (Designing the pyramids, anyone? )

    How about we start a thread where people can post what they have actually achieved so far in life and refer people to it whenever the S belittling crosses the line? That might be a reality check for N conceit big and small.
    Most of my S friends ALWAYS find the S descriptions synonymous with stupid as you've already pointed out.

    MBTI is starting to become part of some people's identity. It's not the four letters, it's the vocabulary that comes along with it: creative, inspirational, visionary, intelligent, independent, etc. If you ask most intuitives to remove that N from their profile, they may be OK with it. Ask them to stop thinking about themselves in those terms and then you'll have more of a problem.

    So then you have a situation where those terms, according to MBTI, don't even apply to a large segment of the population. Who wouldn't balk at that? Who wants to be thought of as a cog in the wheel, worker bee, an pedant, whatever. This shit is bogus.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  3. #93
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    Most of the S types I know, felt a pride about the practical nature of the S type descriptions and felt the N type descriptions were neurotic-like behavior.

  4. #94
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    How about we start a thread where people can post what they have actually achieved so far in life and refer people to it whenever the S belittling crosses the line? That might be a reality check for N conceit big and small.
    You wouldn't like that outcome. It would transfer elitism from N/S to F/T and P/J. Actually you would like that. (INTJs are the most vastly overrepresented in success stories.)

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    MBTI is starting to become part of some people's identity. It's not the four letters, it's the vocabulary that comes along with it: creative, inspirational, visionary, intelligent, independent, etc. If you ask most intuitives to remove that N from their profile, they may be OK with it. Ask them to stop thinking about themselves in those terms and then you'll have more of a problem.
    They would have had to already be thinking in those terms or they wouldn't have scored high in the N part to being with. I don't think it has anything to do with MBTI, the way that people think about themselves. It was already part of their indentity.

    Anyway, why do you think that they ought to stop thinking about themselves in those ways? Why should it become a "problem" for anyone what another person bases their indentity on? Do you have similar feelings about how thinkers or feelers see those traits and how they affect how they see their indenitity? Should a strong thinker be encouraged to take those traits out of their own personal view of their personality?

    A signifigant number of N types have been getting an earful their whole lives about being too dreamy, idealistic, headintheclouds, etc. What's so harmful about trying accept the more positive flipside of those N traits? I cannot believe that any true N type wasn't hearing these traits both positive and negative from others around them all along, way before the MBTI.

    So then you have a situation where those terms, according to MBTI, don't even apply to a large segment of the population. Who wouldn't balk at that? Who wants to be thought of as a cog in the wheel, worker bee, an pedant, whatever. This shit is bogus.
    I know S types who take a strong pride in being part of a larger operation and their loyalty to those organizations. I think it is N bias that leads one to believe that this would always be an insulting way to think for all people. The S types I know who know about this sort of thing don't see it as being just a "cog in a wheel", they believe their small part matters to the greater whole and that gives them meaning in a practical way that matter to them.

  6. #96
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    You wouldn't like that outcome. It would transfer elitism from N/S to F/T and P/J. Actually you would like that. (INTJs are the most vastly overrepresented in success stories.)
    You have a point, and surprisingly, I wouldn't like that at all! I don't want to construct a social hierarchy that places me on top at the expense of further inflating the egos of some of the less constructive elements here. (Not unless we introduce serious seniority benefits, anyway. )

  7. #97
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    They would have had to already be thinking in those terms or they wouldn't have scored high in the N part to being with. I don't think it has anything to do with MBTI, the way that people think about themselves. It was already part of their indentity.

    Anyway, why do you think that they ought to stop thinking about themselves in those ways? Why should it become a "problem" for anyone what another person bases their indentity on? Do you have similar feelings about how thinkers or feelers see those traits and how they affect how they see their indenitity? Should a strong thinker be encouraged to take those traits out of their own personal view of their personality?

    A signifigant number of N types have been getting an earful their whole lives about being too dreamy, idealistic, headintheclouds, etc. What's so harmful about trying accept the more positive flipside of those N traits? I cannot believe that any true N type wasn't hearing these traits both positive and negative from others around them all along, way before the MBTI.



    I know S types who take a strong pride in being part of a larger operation and their loyalty to those organizations. I think it is N bias that leads one to believe that this would always be an insulting way to think for all people. The S types I know who know about this sort of thing don't see it as being just a "cog in a wheel", they believe their small part matters to the greater whole and that gives them meaning in a practical way that matter to them.
    Stop being a victim.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Stop being a victim.
    Stop avoiding the questions and making trite, quippy remarks.

    Again, why should people who felt that these traits were part of their personality make up need to eliminate these aspects from their own view of their identity to begin with? How could someone who didn't see themselves as having those N traits as part of their personal image before MBTI come up N on the MBTI to begin with?

    Should people who know themselves as thinkers feel that they need to eliminate those aspects from their own personal view of their identity?

    Why single out intuition?

    ETA. Doesn't the MBTI describe SP as creative? Aren't ISFP for one described as dreamy and creative?

  9. #99
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Today i really wish i had an S-type with me. I spent the entire afternoon driving in circles trying to find the location for an important meeting tomorrow, which i never did find. Then, i got lost on the way home. My head is splitting. The degree of lostness i just experienced seems like it must go beyond what would have happened with complete statistical randomness. Anyway, my head hurts.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  10. #100
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    I was just looking at the examples of the N types and S types and I found nothing insulting in the S type description.

    While it is true that N type people on these boards do tend to have a N bias when examing the actions and behaviors of S types and tend to focus on the more negative aspects of such behaviors (just as the S types do tend to do to the N types, nothing new there really) , it could also be argued that it would take an N biased outlook to find anything insulting in the S type, at least anymore insulting than the N type description.

    The differences seemed to be more about who was more abstract and who was more concrete, who was more into theory and who was more into practical. Why would one be more insulting over the other?

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