[MBTI General] estj's and intp's

[Yeonhee]

Greetings from a female INTP.

Is it common for ESTJ's to think INTP's are incompetent and in need of some healthy dose of "reality"?

I've been with my boyfriend for over a year now (varies between N/S) and our greatest contention is the J/P and N/S(surprise?). It's insufferable for me and I imagine it's equally irritating for him. Let me further clarify that we get along fine in every other area but these. I accept his lack of interest for the abstract, however, this also precludes him from fully comprehending my being, which in turn, makes his judgment of me much more harsh and dare I say, irrelevant and meaningless. He wants me to "listen to him and do as he says" I'm at a loss when it comes to this. I will not sacrifice my integrity and independence. Has any ESTJ's here been in a relationship with a INTP?

 

[Redbone]

The conflict I have had with extroverted thinkers is that they are interested in action and results. The two I'm close to seldom want to hear about what I'm thinking, they want to hear about what I'm doing or better yet, what I've managed to accomplish. They admire my intelligence but get frustrated about the energy I put into thinking versus doing. It doesn't make sense to them at all so I'm kind of limited about what I can talk to them about. Both of them are prone to interrupting my chain of spoken thought and say, "Okay, I understand what you're saying but what are you going to DO about it?" I can understand your frustration--it's almost like they only see a fraction of you because you cannot span that gap. For me, it came down to a giving a logical and brief explanation on my decisions and maintaining a firm stance on it. Most will say (especially if they care about you) it's not THE WAY but if it works and gets results then it's okay.

On them understanding the deeper aspects of you...hmm, I don't have much advice there. Hopefully you will hear more chime in about this.

 

[mrcockburn]

Greetings from a female INTP.

Is it common for ESTJ's to think INTP's are incompetent and in need of some healthy dose of "reality"?

I've been with my boyfriend for over a year now (varies between N/S) and our greatest contention is the J/P and N/S(surprise?). It's insufferable for me and I imagine it's equally irritating for him. Let me further clarify that we get along fine in every other area but these. I accept his lack of interest for the abstract, however, this also precludes him from fully comprehending my being, which in turn, makes his judgment of me much more harsh and dare I say, irrelevant and meaningless. He wants me to "listen to him and do as he says" I'm at a loss when it comes to this. I will not sacrifice my integrity and independence. Has any ESTJ's here been in a relationship with a INTP?

I'm a Te-dom, and never would I tell someone to "listen to me and do as I say". The guy has control issues that you probably don't need to deal with.

A true and healthy Te might still be blunt and expect competence, we operate rationally and WANT you to KEEP your integrity and independence. We have no time to play the Mom or Dad role.

We just expect things to get done and to get done right - I don't care HOW you do it, personally. But if you don't perform, we just don't stick around. Simple.

 

[IZthe411]

I don't get it...

I think the most interesting type to me are NTPs, especially ENTPs, since Ne is their dominant, and I love their outlook on things, as opposed to me, whose first stop is to look at things 'the way they are', THEN look at it the 'ways it could be'. I dunno, I think it depends on the SJ, really. If they aren't comfortable with possibilities and alternatives, I imagine it can be hell, especially since they are leading with Te.

I think since STJs and NTPs share Si and Ne, it would be a great combinaton.

Do you/can you appreciate his approach?

 

[EJCC]

Greetings from a female INTP.

Is it common for ESTJ's to think INTP's are incompetent and in need of some healthy dose of "reality"?

I haven't been in a relationship with an INTP, but I'm friends with a bunch of them and my dad is one. My rules with INTPs are the same as with everyone else regardless of type:
1. I will ONLY consider them to be incompetent if it doesn't look like they can get the job done, and they prove this on multiple occasions. (For example: "You've tried to fix the TV remote like five times and it hasn't worked. Can we look at the instruction manual now???")
2. If their opinion is the polar opposite of mine, I want to know the factual basis behind it. I want to hear statistics, or see credible sources. I'm an extreme skeptic, but I am NOT impossible to convince.

The only time I've really had communication trouble with INTPs (outside of lack of understanding of humor, or emotional moments) has been when we've debated, and the INTP used that as kind of a thought experiment - i.e. throwing out all the information on the subject without actually making a judgment on it - and I had no idea what he was doing. I would keep going "Oh I know what you're talking about - wait now I don't - wait, why do you keep contradicting yourself???" But if I had known what he was doing beforehand, there wouldn't have been conflict.

I dunno. I like 'em. Maybe it depends on the person.

 

[Yeonhee]

Okay, I'm intrigued and slightly confused at the present moment.

I've taken a socionics test and I tested as INTJ with a close ENTJ and INTP following. He tested as ISFJ following two subdominant possibilities (ENFJ/ESFJ).

What I've noticed from his control issues or just conflicts in general, he can be quite emotionally manipulative about it. If I were to express some sort of concern, he can quickly become emotional/sensitive and take it personally. This boggles my mind. Is there a difference in NT Jdom and ST jdom? Do we "J" in different ways? For me, I just do not care much about planning EVERY SINGLE PRACTICAL DETAIL. I don't prefer having an absence of planning, usually just like having an "overall" plan.

My SO likes practical results; I'm not so much interested in practical results as much as knowing and then creating a plan. Any help or questions would be appreciated.

 

[Yeonhee]

I haven't been in a relationship with an INTP, but I'm friends with a bunch of them and my dad is one. My rules with INTPs are the same as with everyone else regardless of type:
1. I will ONLY consider them to be incompetent if it doesn't look like they can get the job done, and they prove this on multiple occasions. (For example: "You've tried to fix the TV remote like five times and it hasn't worked. Can we look at the instruction manual now???")
2. If their opinion is the polar opposite of mine, I want to know the factual basis behind it. I want to hear statistics, or see credible sources. I'm an extreme skeptic, but I am NOT impossible to convince.

The only time I've really had communication trouble with INTPs (outside of lack of understanding of humor, or emotional moments) has been when we've debated, and the INTP used that as kind of a thought experiment - i.e. throwing out all the information on the subject without actually making a judgment on it - and I had no idea what he was doing. I would keep going "Oh I know what you're talking about - wait now I don't - wait, why do you keep contradicting yourself???" But if I had known what he was doing beforehand, there wouldn't have been conflict.

I dunno. I like 'em. Maybe it depends on the person.

I tend to do that. I speculate and theorize during a debate, which includes contributing a lot of information that I perceive as pertinent to comprehending the entire issue, and this can leave him without much commentary, rarely any feedback other than "That's interesting." or "I agree." It's slightly frustrating as I appreciate debate.

I lol'd at 1. To INTP's time is not an issue, they want to test themselves. This process of "figuring things out on their own" is quite important to any NT, I imagine.

 

[Yeonhee]

I don't get it...

I think the most interesting type to me are NTPs, especially ENTPs, since Ne is their dominant, and I love their outlook on things, as opposed to me, whose first stop is to look at things 'the way they are', THEN look at it the 'ways it could be'. I dunno, I think it depends on the SJ, really. If they aren't comfortable with possibilities and alternatives, I imagine it can be hell, especially since they are leading with Te.

I think since STJs and NTPs share Si and Ne, it would be a great combinaton.

Do you/can you appreciate his approach?

I only have one ISTJ friend and he's pretty awesome. We can talk about complex issues together and it's never really been a problem. However, I can't say for relationships as that's an entirely different realm of being. Out of all the SJ's, I have a hard time dealing with ESFJ's so far (my father.)

Out of curiosity, what type are you, IZ?

 

[Yeonhee]

The conflict I have had with extroverted thinkers is that they are interested in action and results. The two I'm close to seldom want to hear about what I'm thinking, they want to hear about what I'm doing or better yet, what I've managed to accomplish. They admire my intelligence but get frustrated about the energy I put into thinking versus doing. It doesn't make sense to them at all so I'm kind of limited about what I can talk to them about. Both of them are prone to interrupting my chain of spoken thought and say, "Okay, I understand what you're saying but what are you going to DO about it?" I can understand your frustration--it's almost like they only see a fraction of you because you cannot span that gap. For me, it came down to a giving a logical and brief explanation on my decisions and maintaining a firm stance on it. Most will say (especially if they care about you) it's not THE WAY but if it works and gets results then it's okay.

On them understanding the deeper aspects of you...hmm, I don't have much advice there. Hopefully you will hear more chime in about this.

Nailed it. I don't have this problem with NTJ's, but only with STJ/SFJ's. I sometimes feel as though my SO does not know who I am, just bases his judgment on what results I produce.

 

[Redbone]

Okay, I'm intrigued and slightly confused at the present moment.

I've taken a socionics test and I tested as INTJ with a close ENTJ and INTP following. He tested as ISFJ following two subdominant possibilities (ENFJ/ESFJ).

What I've noticed from his control issues or just conflicts in general, he can be quite emotionally manipulative about it. If I were to express some sort of concern, he can quickly become emotional/sensitive and take it personally. This boggles my mind. Is there a difference in NT Jdom and ST jdom? Do we "J" in different ways? For me, I just do not care much about planning EVERY SINGLE PRACTICAL DETAIL. I don't prefer having an absence of planning, usually just like having an "overall" plan.

My SO likes practical results; I'm not so much interested in practical results as much as knowing and then creating a plan. Any help or questions would be appreciated.

I believe socionics INTP = INTJ.

If he's an SJ with F-dom...leave now. Run while you still have the strength! I'm just kidding.

If he really is a XSFJ, then you are going to run into issues like this quite frequently. I've never met any SJ with a T-dom that were emotionally manipulative...they just don't do that sort of thing. They are way too straightforward for that kind of business and it wouldn't even occur to them.

Here are some things that can snag: The love of debate may taken as a personal attack. Wanting someone to explain their reasoning or views on something may be construed as interrogation. If you are lucky, you can explain that this is just the way your mind operates and it is not personal--this is simply the way you reach an understanding of something AND that understanding something is vital to you. Hopefully, he will understand and you can reach a compromise without you getting frustrated and him taking things personally.

Edit: Yes, this does help but it seems to be more useful for XSTJ. Works well with ENTJs, too. My ex is an ESFJ and it often seemed like he had an emotional attachment to doing things in a particular way and would take my attempts at innovation or not doing it 'his way' very personally. I had to explain that it came naturally to me and that I enjoyed it.

It is a workable relationship...any type can be with any other type but you're going to have be aware of where the potential pitfalls are and the both of you willing to compromise. The emotional maturity of you both will play a large part of this.

 

[Yeonhee]

I believe socionics INTP = INTJ.

If he's an SJ with F-dom...leave now. Run while you still have the strength! I'm just kidding.

If he really is a XSFJ, then you are going to run into issues like this quite frequently. I've never met any SJ with a T-dom that were emotionally manipulative...they just don't do that sort of thing. They are way too straightforward for that kind of business and it wouldn't even occur to them.

Here are some things that can snag: The love of debate may taken as a personal attack. Wanting someone to explain their reasoning or views on something may be construed as interrogation. If you are lucky, you can explain that this is just the way your mind operates and it is not personal--this is simply the way you reach an understanding of something AND that understanding something is vital to you. Hopefully, he will understand and you can reach a compromise without you getting frustrated and him taking things personally.

Edit: Yes, this does help but it seems to be more useful for XSTJ. Works well with ENTJs, too. My ex is an ESFJ and it often seemed like he had an emotional attachment to doing things in a particular way and would take my attempts at innovation or not doing it 'his way' very personally. I had to explain that it came naturally to me and that I enjoyed it.

It is a workable relationship...any type can be with any other type but you're going to have be aware of where the potential pitfalls are and the both of you willing to compromise. The emotional maturity of you both will play a large part of this.

Haha. I speculate my relationship with SFJ's may have something to do with my father. It may be unconscious.

I'm not sure about his F/T, honestly. His results always vary from ENTJ, ESTJ, ISFJ to ENFJ. It's quite bizarre. If anyone is interested in figuring out his type I'll provide some bit of information:

-He's confident and self assured in almost everything he deals with. Very humorous, funny, jovial, blunt, crude, and a bit obnoxious at times.
-He likes things planned and structured
-He does not talk about emotions, but he likes to be physically affectionate
-He's always preoccupied with some project, or in the general, always has to be doing something.
-He is sensitive when it comes to emotions. He does not like conflict or confrontation.
-He can be extremely logical and systematic.
-He can delve into abstract conversations, but at some point, he shuts off and can't go beyond that or is simply not interested.
-Whenever I observe him around people, he gets energized, his voice elevates, and I sense that he's trying to "dominate" the conversation.
-Even though he enjoys being around his friends, he likes to have his alone time, mostly socializing on the internet, being part of a forum community with his hobbies, or playing video games with his friends.
-He dislikes anything "pretentious"
-He's very nurturing in terms of "taking care of things" and he pays attention to people's feelings. For instance, if his friend requests his time, he feels "bad" if he declined. It's a "promise" in his eyes. In other ways, he goes out of his way to accommodate based on his principles.
-When we debate, we're fine, he just quickly shuts off.
-When we're in a discussion about our relationship, he feels I'm personally attacking him when I'm trying to be objective. He treats me like I'm an enemy, it's bizarre. He can go into a fit or rage and be irrational in my eyes. He'll blow things out of proportion.

In terms of our relationship, he wants me to do things with him, go out with his friends or just activities 1 on 1. I'm very much at home just reading, studying and thinking. When I enter a social event with him, I'm a bit cool headed and detached. He perceives this as "not trying enough", but says it's fine if it's just who I am. EDIT: However, he's still very much at home, as well. He just likes doing things with me.

 

[IZthe411]

I only have one ISTJ friend and he's pretty awesome. We can talk about complex issues together and it's never really been a problem. However, I can't say for relationships as that's an entirely different realm of being. Out of all the SJ's, I have a hard time dealing with ESFJ's so far (my father.)

Out of curiosity, what type are you, IZ?

I'm ISTJ- But it seems like I'm older than most SJs here. I'm 32. I just don't have this problem with communication/understanding others that many have here on this forum. Not that I get EVERYTHING the first time- considering that communication styles even within personalities are varied- but I'm a smart dude, come from a huge family and had a lot of experiences in life and work in a dymanic atmosphere where critical thinking and innovation are necessary or else face being in a rut.

Why is the relationship thing out with the SITJ.

 

[Yeonhee]

I'm ISTJ- But it seems like I'm older than most SJs here. I'm 32. I just don't have this problem with communication/understanding others that many have here on this forum. Not that I get EVERYTHING the first time- considering that communication styles even within personalities are varied- but I'm a smart dude, come from a huge family and had a lot of experiences in life and work in a dymanic atmosphere where critical thinking and innovation are necessary or else face being in a rut.

Why is the relationship thing out with the SITJ.

Jung demonstrated that we must "evolve" beyond our perceived types. You may just be an evolved and balanced ISTJ. I can very much relate to my NT profile, however, I try to develop my feeling function to grow as a person. I'm also terrible in the sensory realm and I admire those that can be efficient at it. This is one of the reasons why I'm attracted to my SO.

"Why is the relationship thing out with the ISTJ" Care to elaborate?

 

[IZthe411]

Nailed it. I don't have this problem with NTJ's, but only with STJ/SFJ's. I sometimes feel as though my SO does not know who I am, just bases his judgment on what results I produce.

A blindspot with Si perspectives is that if their experience has not taught them that there are 5000000000 ways to skin a cat, they can struggle with different ways of doing things.
One thing that Pe-types can do, at least intially, is gain the SJ's trust and assurance that you are competent and have their interests at heart. This takes communication and action that is consistent, as an SJ (well at least me) pays attention to both and looks for anything that doesn't jive. As a Te male, I've noticed that F types (males and females), when speaking from an feelings based perspective, may not have that consistency. That doesn't mean that they are liars, LOL. I just have to change my approach. But that trust is important.

But you are an INTP womn, so for your particular situation, where he is interested in results, you are comfortable with getting comfortable with the idea and taking things come what may.
My request to whoever comes here lookin for advice is to remember it's a 2 way street.

I noticed you say you imagine that it irritates him as well. Introverts can sometimes come to conclusion on things, never validate it, and let that chart the course. Make sure you are expressing this. If they care, they'll learn to work it out.

Like Redbone said

For me, it came down to a giving a logical and brief explanation on my decisions and maintaining a firm stance on it. Most will say (especially if they care about you) it's not THE WAY but if it works and gets results then it's okay.

instead of asserting your independence and all that, try this approach. It might get them off your back.

Hope this helps.

 

[IZthe411]

Jung demonstrated that we must "evolve" beyond our perceived types. You may just be an evolved and balanced ISTJ. I can very much relate to my NT profile, however, I try to develop my feeling function to grow as a person. I'm also terrible in the sensory realm and I admire those that can be efficient at it. This is one of the reasons why I'm attracted to my SO.

"Why is the relationship thing out with the ISTJ" Care to elaborate?

My attraction to NPs are their use of abstraction and the flextibility factor, the things that don't come to me as naturally as an SJ. There are definitely pain points in both friendships and relationships. So I feel you. What worked for me was not to embrace the differences, have an open mind, and all that.

My last statement was based on your statement about your ISTJ boy- you can discuss stuff but there's no potential for an relationship. Why?

 

[Within]

The tedium and vexation ESTJ's have put me through is unrivalled by any type I've encountered so far, for me they demonstrate the very definition of a closed-off rationality without any level of intellectual touch.

 

[IZthe411]

Haha. I speculate my relationship with SFJ's may have something to do with my father. It may be unconscious.

I'm not sure about his F/T, honestly. His results always vary from ENTJ, ESTJ, ISFJ to ENFJ. It's quite bizarre. If anyone is interested in figuring out his type I'll provide some bit of information:

-He's confident and self assured in almost everything he deals with. Very humorous, funny, jovial, blunt, crude, and a bit obnoxious at times.
-He likes things planned and structured
-He does not talk about emotions, but he likes to be physically affectionate
-He's always preoccupied with some project, or in the general, always has to be doing something.
-He is sensitive when it comes to emotions. He does not like conflict or confrontation.
-He can be extremely logical and systematic.
-He can delve into abstract conversations, but at some point, he shuts off and can't go beyond that or is simply not interested.
-Whenever I observe him around people, he gets energized, his voice elevates, and I sense that he's trying to "dominate" the conversation.
-Even though he enjoys being around his friends, he likes to have his alone time, mostly socializing on the internet, being part of a forum community with his hobbies, or playing video games with his friends.
-He dislikes anything "pretentious"
-He's very nurturing in terms of "taking care of things" and he pays attention to people's feelings. For instance, if his friend requests his time, he feels "bad" if he declined. It's a "promise" in his eyes. In other ways, he goes out of his way to accommodate based on his principles.
-When we debate, we're fine, he just quickly shuts off.
-When we're in a discussion about our relationship, he feels I'm personally attacking him when I'm trying to be objective. He treats me like I'm an enemy, it's bizarre. He can go into a fit or rage and be irrational in my eyes. He'll blow things out of proportion.

In terms of our relationship, he wants me to do things with him, go out with his friends or just activities 1 on 1. I'm very much at home just reading, studying and thinking. When I enter a social event with him, I'm a bit cool headed and detached. He perceives this as "not trying enough", but says it's fine if it's just who I am. EDIT: However, he's still very much at home, as well. He just likes doing things with me.

Sounds like ESTJ, althought the N/S function, to me, is hardest to identify based on descriptions, as people see what they want to see.
If you stack the functions, he's Fi inferior, which means he is least comfortable with that part of himself. Like you mentioned, he doesn't discuss feelings. He feels bad about not being able to do things for people. He's not confrontational and can take things personally....all those things ring Fi. I think the sure way to tell, though, is to pay attention to his execution style. It soulds like the way he treats you is more Te like.

 

[Yeonhee]

My attraction to NPs are their use of abstraction and the flextibility factor, the things that don't come to me as naturally as an SJ. There are definitely pain points in both friendships and relationships. So I feel you. What worked for me was not to embrace the differences, have an open mind, and all that.

My last statement was based on your statement about your ISTJ boy- you can discuss stuff but there's no potential for an relationship. Why?

I have no sexual attraction to him. I have friends I can communicate intellectually with but it's extremely hard for me to be attracted to someone. It's not about potential, it's about a conscious thought or feeling over a person. I can have potential with you or with anyone I meet, but it does not say for certainty I will want it. It's a bit of mystery.

 

[Yeonhee]

Sounds like ESTJ, althought the N/S function, to me, is hardest to identify based on descriptions, as people see what they want to see.
If you stack the functions, he's Fi inferior, which means he is least comfortable with that part of himself. Like you mentioned, he doesn't discuss feelings. He feels bad about not being able to do things for people. He's not confrontational and can take things personally....all those things ring Fi. I think the sure way to tell, though, is to pay attention to his execution style. It soulds like the way he treats you is more Te like.

His execution style is: Direct. He likes to control and direct things in a systematic way. He won't sugarcoat the "truth" for you.

 

[Yeonhee]

A blindspot with Si perspectives is that if their experience has not taught them that there are 5000000000 ways to skin a cat, they can struggle with different ways of doing things.
One thing that Pe-types can do, at least intially, is gain the SJ's trust and assurance that you are competent and have their interests at heart. This takes communication and action that is consistent, as an SJ (well at least me) pays attention to both and looks for anything that doesn't jive. As a Te male, I've noticed that F types (males and females), when speaking from an feelings based perspective, may not have that consistency. That doesn't mean that they are liars, LOL. I just have to change my approach. But that trust is important.

But you are an INTP womn, so for your particular situation, where he is interested in results, you are comfortable with getting comfortable with the idea and taking things come what may.
My request to whoever comes here lookin for advice is to remember it's a 2 way street.

I noticed you say you imagine that it irritates him as well. Introverts can sometimes come to conclusion on things, never validate it, and let that chart the course. Make sure you are expressing this. If they care, they'll learn to work it out.

Like Redbone said
instead of asserting your independence and all that, try this approach. It might get them off your back.

Hope this helps.

I understand what you're saying and I'll implement that. He just wants me to have a detailed plan and let him know in advance. I'm quite absent minded so it's a conscious effort for me.