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  1. #71
    Senior Member 2XtremeENFP's Avatar
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    ISTJ's hate disappointing people, and like even less hurting those they are close to. With ISTJs, you need to be very direct and unwavering. Don't be afraid of hurting their feelings or stepping on their toes...they'll get over it.
    First, thank you so much Recoleta. You've given great advice, you are very wise

    However, I am nervous that if laying it all on the table makes them feel like they are somehow treating us unfairly, wouldn't they want to walk away seeing as how they do hate disappointing people? It's like, I'm nervous if I say the wrong thing and they see exactly what they're doing, they will feel so bad and say "See! That's why I didn't want to do this!"

  2. #72
    Senior Member 2XtremeENFP's Avatar
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    We kind of have 'unfinished business' as far as I'm concerned, since I know we both like each other, and when I basically walked away for a few weeks after telling him that I was in love with him and getting his 'I can't do a relationship right now' response, he sent me a text to let me know that I 'had been in his thoughts'.
    Seriously... does he not realize what mixed signals he's sending?!

  3. #73
    Senior Member Misty_Mountain_Rose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2XtremeENFP View Post
    Seriously... does he not realize what mixed signals he's sending?!
    I don't think he sees it as mixed signals. I think that he genuinely feels bad about how this has gone down. I knew before we had that hook-up night that he was focusing on him. He had quit his job of 6 years, a business that he basically built from the ground up, his own brain-child, so that he could concentrate on him. Knowing this, we both thought that we could kind of cheat the deck somehow by getting closer, but still not being 'in a relationship' and things got complicated quick when I realized that I wasn't capable of doing it again and why.

    I didn't even want to tell him how I felt because I knew already where he was at and that now is probably the worst possible time in his life for a woman to say 'I Love you'. But, it had to be said. We were past 'just friends' but not anything 'real' yet, and I couldn't live with it so I called a quick halt to our planned escapades.

    My guess is that he's kicking himself for 'goofing up the friendship' (I kind of am, but at the same time I'm glad to have finally realized how I feel). I think he wants me to know that he didn't just use me. I understand it, but it doesn't help me with the whole 'moving on' thing. The last thing we said about the whole thing when I got his initial 'I cant do a relationshp' response was that if it was meant to be, it would be.

    I think I said something in one of the other threads along the line of not really walking away so much as sitting down under a shady tree along side the path and watching him from a distance for a while.

    But, how long is too long to wait? The more time invested, the harder it will be to walk away.

    So, again, logically speaking... the best thing for me to do would be to get back out there, start dating others and live my life - and really believe that if its meant to be, it will be.

    Embrace the possibilities.

  4. #74
    No me digas, che! Recoleta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonbaby View Post
    Recoleta,

    My question, do you have any physical contact at all? If he touches you, it is very purposeful. The few other INTJs I know are only physically affectionate to someone they have deep feelings for. To me, it is a sign or invitation to touch me in return. Kiss him if so... .
    Well, we hug every time we part. At first (like a couple of years ago) it was like an awkward one-armed hug, but over time we've successfully managed to perfect a good two-armed hug....lol. I dunno, sometimes we'll play Wii, and if we do good he'll give me a high-five or something. If we watch a movie on the couch we'll sit next to each other, and be close to touching, but not quite. Is that actually considered a decent amount of contact for an INTJ? It really is an annoying situation to be in, there are times when I really just kinda want to lunge at him and kiss him, but that would be so out of character for me I'm not sure how either of us would react...lol

    Quote Originally Posted by moonbaby View Post
    So, I am left wonder...what does all this mean. I laid it all down, he has all my thoughts and words.
    moonbaby, your situation seems to be in a very difficult place for both you and your ISTJ. I wish I had some better advice, but I really have no experience in this arena. To me, it seems that your ISTJ is torn between his obligation to his family/wife, and his desires of what he really would rather do. You have to remember, ISTJs are fiercely loyal -- it almost seems to me that he is having to choose between his family (something that he created -- something he feels moral and personal obligation and love towards), and you -- the person he would cast off his obligations for.

    This situation for an ISTJ is an emotional hell. The question he is likely asking himself is this: Do what I want, or do what I know is right even if it makes me miserable? He likely thinks that leaving his wife and children for you would be wrong. You have to understand that for ISTJ's their yeses mean yes, and their noes mean no. Those wedding vows really did mean "for better or for worse" and divorcing his wife and breaking up the household is not just a decision, it is an admission of failure that will affect him for a long time afterward. I think this situation would be even further exacerbated if he is religious/Christian.

    I feel for you and your situation, it must be very painful, but if you want my frank advice, you need to recognize that he is married and has a family and in order to prevent future pain and heartbreak you should let him go and cut communication. By remaining in his life you are only hurting the both of you in the long run. Even if he is showing you affection verbally or through writing I would be wary of this simply because at night, he's not coming home to you. His words are meaningless if they can not be acted upon. IMO, he either needs to break it off with you, or break it off with his wife. I have no doubt that he has feelings for you, but until he makes an official move to leave his wife I think it'd be best for you to distance yourself. I'm sorry if that's not what you wanted to hear, but I do commend the both of you for not crossing physical boundaries while he is still in his marriage. The last piece of advice I could give is that both of your actions effect other people. It's not right for you to be kept "on the side," and it's not right for him to have to choose between you or his wife if he is trying to work out the marriage.

  5. #75
    No me digas, che! Recoleta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2XtremeENFP View Post
    First, thank you so much Recoleta. You've given great advice, you are very wise

    However, I am nervous that if laying it all on the table makes them feel like they are somehow treating us unfairly, wouldn't they want to walk away seeing as how they do hate disappointing people? It's like, I'm nervous if I say the wrong thing and they see exactly what they're doing, they will feel so bad and say "See! That's why I didn't want to do this!"
    That's why you include a section in your letter that says something like, "Even though I am saying these things to you, I needed you to know how I really feel. For a relationship to be successful there needs to be open communication and honesty -- I want to have that with you! I know that I myself am not without faults. I know I drive you crazy when I do [X, Y, and Z]. Despite these issues, I just want you to know this: I love you anyway, and because I love you I am willing and want to work on these things with you! [List some great things about them].

    That should stop them from going all emo on you...lol

  6. #76
    Senior Member batumi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanveane View Post
    I think there's a really strong attraction for INFJs to ISTJs. I think whether or not it's warranted, an INFJ may feel somewhat unheard and disconnected from an ISTJ in a relationship because we seem to have very different ways of going about things in terms of day to day living. This is just what I think after one relationship with one ISTJ.
    I think you are very wise.

  7. #77
    Senior Member batumi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Recoleta View Post
    For the ladies out there that are hurting because your ISTJ male won't budge, I think you need to step up and let your voice be heard. If you're at the point where you know they have feelings for you, then IMO it's not fair for them to call all the shots about when it is and is not an appropriate time for a relationship. Of course there are exceptions and special circumstances that places them in a position where a relationship would really not be viable, but if you think they're copping out on you, don't be afraid to call them out on it.

    For me (which, this may be different because I am a female) if I know I truly love someone I don't care how busy I am, I make room in my life for them. The only time I use the whole, "I'm not going to change my schedule for you" is when I am not in love with the other person, and I really don't see myself in a future relationship with them. That's what happened with the guy who was a boxer in my earlier post. I felt like a complete jerk for distancing myself like that, but something didn't feel right, and I knew I didn't love him, so I cut the ties and made myself unavailable.

    I think one good way to get to an ISTJ is to write them a letter than outlines very logically the way they make you feel, and the reasons for why and how they are hurting you emotionally. ISTJ's hate disappointing people, and like even less hurting those they are close to. With ISTJs, you need to be very direct and unwavering. Don't be afraid of hurting their feelings or stepping on their toes...they'll get over it. By writing them a letter (trust me), they will read it over and over like a thousand times picking apart everything you say and will likely go into crazy analyzation-mode within their own lives. It might be the only way to get into their thick skulls. Say everything you want to say to them...they'll likely thank you for it. Then, give them time to mull over it, but tell them you want to hear back from them. If they are open to talking about it, it's a good sign. If they remain rigid and unwavering once you've shared your feelings cut your losses and move on.

    Any ISTJ guys wanna verify that for me? Do you think that is a good idea?
    I just want to thank you for this post. I had already kind of decided to move on but this really helped me feel good about my choice.
    My relationship with an ISTJ was all controlled, indirectly, by his work.
    Although there were many many good times, I think in the long run I am
    going to be happier with someone who doesn't live, eat, and breathe work.
    And someone who is able to put chores aside occasionally to let them wait, and have fun or be in a relationship for part of a day.

    So thank you, thank you, thank you.
    Not only are you correct but it feels wonderful to be able to be open and honest, and that was always one great thing about this ISTJ man, he
    was able to hear what I had to say without being too hurt.

  8. #78
    Senior Member moonbaby's Avatar
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    Recoleta,

    I appreciate your honesty. I have no reason to change the course I am currently on, though his blatent shows of emotion certainally got my attention and caught me off guard. He needs to be right where he is. If he leaves that situation then perhaps he will look for me. Until then I can only serve as a pacifier/road block.
    I think maybe having sent his own words back to him may be enough to stun him and bring him back into focus.

    As for Mr. INTJ...
    I will pick a seat away from others so I can see them. Your closeness (unless you have just 1 piece of furniture) is a good indicator. I was thinking, the best way to test him without possible negative backlash:

    Next time watching a movie w/him rest your head on his shoulder. See if he stiffens up or leans into you. You will have your answer.

  9. #79
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Recoleta View Post
    For the ladies out there that are hurting because your ISTJ male won't budge, I think you need to step up and let your voice be heard. If you're at the point where you know they have feelings for you, then IMO it's not fair for them to call all the shots about when it is and is not an appropriate time for a relationship. Of course there are exceptions and special circumstances that places them in a position where a relationship would really not be viable, but if you think they're copping out on you, don't be afraid to call them out on it.
    Yeah I think this is a good thing to take note. Remember the obvious: relationships are a two-way street. It's wonderful that you ladies are making the effort to understand him, but if he's not making an effort to understand you...

    Quote Originally Posted by Recoleta
    For me (which, this may be different because I am a female) if I know I truly love someone I don't care how busy I am, I make room in my life for them. The only time I use the whole, "I'm not going to change my schedule for you" is when I am not in love with the other person, and I really don't see myself in a future relationship with them. That's what happened with the guy who was a boxer in my earlier post. I felt like a complete jerk for distancing myself like that, but something didn't feel right, and I knew I didn't love him, so I cut the ties and made myself unavailable.
    Well, that's mostly true. Coming back to what I said before about "not letting a relationship take over my whole life", I guess the idea is that I don't want to feel like I'm losing control over my own life. That's one of the most frightening things in the world. If he cares about you, he does want you to be "an important part" of his life, as Arbiter Dewey said.



    Now this part is gold:


    Quote Originally Posted by Recoleta
    I think one good way to get to an ISTJ is to write them a letter than outlines very logically the way they make you feel, and the reasons for why and how they are hurting you emotionally. ISTJ's hate disappointing people, and like even less hurting those they are close to. With ISTJs, you need to be very direct and unwavering. Don't be afraid of hurting their feelings or stepping on their toes...they'll get over it. By writing them a letter (trust me), they will read it over and over like a thousand times picking apart everything you say and will likely go into crazy analyzation-mode within their own lives. It might be the only way to get into their thick skulls. Say everything you want to say to them...they'll likely thank you for it. Then, give them time to mull over it, but tell them you want to hear back from them. If they are open to talking about it, it's a good sign. If they remain rigid and unwavering once you've shared your feelings cut your losses and move on.

    Any ISTJ guys wanna verify that for me? Do you think that is a good idea?
    I'll confirm it, especially the bolded parts. It may sound like an off-the-wall idea, but if he's like me it's a surefire plan to bring his full attention to the situation. If he cares about you, he will almost definitely write back, a long reply that tries to cover everything--even his feelings. And I'm far better at expressing how I feel in writing, when I can think for a good long time about how I feel and why I feel that way. And just be open and honest, and say what you mean and what you want.

    Side story: A girlfriend once broke up with me by writing a letter. She was very, very introverted, and maybe even INFJ. In the letter were things that I kind of thought might be problems, but since she didn't say anything, I figured she didn't think they were problems. I followed it up by writing something like a combination between a love letter and a persuasive essay and she showed it to her friends. They just couldn't believe I had written it, and they thought it was "so romantic" (compared to the Cimarron that they saw and knew). It didn't change her mind, of course, and looking back I feel bad that I went that far, because ultimately it just piled more guilt onto her shoulders. But anyway, it was the deepest and most productive communication we had had in our whole relationship.

    So I say go for the letter idea, if you both care about each other, and if you're both willing to work towards a better relationship. (But I'd hate to be wrong about this....it couldn't backfire, could it? I think the worst that could happen is that nothing would change.)
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  10. #80
    Welcome to Sunnyside Mondo's Avatar
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    I think ISTJs could be very competent flirts-especially with the Si, which makes them greatly in tune with the physical subtleties of their environment.

    Many of the ones I know though hate subtleties. Their word for that sort of stuff is 'bullshit'.
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