User Tag List

First 12

Results 11 to 16 of 16

  1. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    ISTJ
    Posts
    109

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Santtu View Post
    Sometimes I see people argue that a particular concept "doesn't exist", as a concept is an abstraction over the whole, but all there is to a whole is it's parts.

    This position is best described as reductionism, some of which is greedy.

    I'm not sure if this disbelief of concepts is really tied to one's use of S function. Continuum fallacy is something similar. People argue that a phenomenon exists in a continuum, like amount of hair on someone's head. It's arbitrary decision to draw the line between a bald man and someone having hair, so they argue it's a poor concept, and shouldn't be used at all.

    I've also seen somewhat similar argument, telling that there's no instance of a perfect capitalism in the world, and no instance of perfect communism has ever occured, so there's no communism or capitalism at all.

    This "no concepts" belief pleases some people. Disbelievers often point out that the concepts aren't as readily verifiable, they've been made arbitrarily, could be done in a different way, or they don't otherwise satisfy their arbitrary ( !!! ) criteria.

    Is this group the S group?
    Whether the concept exists - as a part or a whole - doesn't matter (to me) with regard to making a specific decision. As an example, how can a capitalistic ecomonic system be such when hospitals exist in a socialist economic setting can be debated ad infinitium. I don't rely on philisopocal debates and their conclusions to make decisions.

    Just my thoughts...
    ...doesn't work or play well with others...

  2. #12
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Posts
    3,272

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Condor View Post
    Whether the concept exists - as a part or a whole - doesn't matter (to me) with regard to making a specific decision. As an example, how can a capitalistic ecomonic system be such when hospitals exist in a socialist economic setting can be debated ad infinitium. I don't rely on philisopocal debates and their conclusions to make decisions.

    Just my thoughts...
    That's a fairly ordinary exercise; X could be either this way or that way, so let's not think about it. As far as it's about making decisions, I too wouldn't make decisions by reasoning I can't follow or by facts I can't understand.

    I guess all people have some areas of decision making where they'll do poorly; by using any method they're capable of in that problem domain, they would just do a disfavor to themselves.

    If you consider reality anything that doesn't go away when stopping to imagine about it, you find many concepts real too; the sum, average and median about a set of numbers, popularity of a person, someone's position on a political spectrum and so on.

    Perhaps I'm extremely Te with my views then; I know person's popularity can be measured by page impressions, google hits, etc.. the topic of popularity can never be thoroughly studied, and those simple tools provide only a limited view on the subject.. still, they can be used to good effect for some purposes. I feel better by using some data and acknowledging the problems rather than sitting unless until the understanding is perfect, perhaps eternally.

    Perhaps this "no concepts" thing is really "bad concept" speak, advocated by perfectionist thinkers?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  3. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    ISTJ
    Posts
    109

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Santtu View Post
    That's a fairly ordinary exercise; X could be either this way or that way, so let's not think about it. As far as it's about making decisions, I too wouldn't make decisions by reasoning I can't follow or by facts I can't understand.

    I guess all people have some areas of decision making where they'll do poorly; by using any method they're capable of in that problem domain, they would just do a disfavor to themselves.

    If you consider reality anything that doesn't go away when stopping to imagine about it, you find many concepts real too; the sum, average and median about a set of numbers, popularity of a person, someone's position on a political spectrum and so on.

    Perhaps I'm extremely Te with my views then; I know person's popularity can be measured by page impressions, google hits, etc.. the topic of popularity can never be thoroughly studied, and those simple tools provide only a limited view on the subject.. still, they can be used to good effect for some purposes. I feel better by using some data and acknowledging the problems rather than sitting unless the understanding is perferct, perhaps eternally.

    Perhaps this "no concepts" thing is really "bad concept" speak, advocated by perfectionist thinkers?
    Don't know what perfectionist thinkers you're referring to but with respect to reality, I believe my concept of reality is strictly derived from my senses. Since I have to interpret what my senses tell me, my version of reality is skewed to my way of thinking (as it is, I would venture to say, for everyone else). This is why debates on the concepts of reality (does this concept exist or does this one...) are IMO rather pointless. It's not so much that I prefer not to think about it, I rather ask what can I do about it?
    ...doesn't work or play well with others...

  4. #14
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Posts
    3,272

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Condor View Post
    Don't know what perfectionist thinkers you're referring to but with respect to reality, I believe my concept of reality is strictly derived from my senses. Since I have to interpret what my senses tell me, my version of reality is skewed to my way of thinking (as it is, I would venture to say, for everyone else). This is why debates on the concepts of reality (does this concept exist or does this one...) are IMO rather pointless. It's not so much that I prefer not to think about it, I rather ask what can I do about it?
    I'm always thinking what I can do with a piece of information, too. I mean, by doing something, you get something.. you exert some effort, and get a result. Now that's not a bad thing by any means.

    But.. I've noticed there's some desire of truth for some people, desire to write truthful accounts of things that exist, and I've found it worthwhile. I mean, I really believe I can learn a great deal by just studying books, or other second-hand accounts of real things. When I learn a new math concept, for example, I've made sure it's exactly as told; I do the exercises and see it myself. So I guess much of what I've learned is theory based, and I like to have it assured and certain.

    I try to stay on top of the kinds of lies, forgeries, deceptions and such to make sure I really learn something about the reality when I read a book, as opposed to something imaginary without an application - something that doesn't have firm relation to the reality.

    But.. I always want there to be a way to check it out if a given fact is true. I don't have to be the one doing the fact-checking; I can trust, for example, that the scientist probably reviewed all the relevant facts, and their finding can be independently verified or nullified.

    So, I trust that people can be sure enough about a lot of things they can't directly verify, but they just have to develop a personal hierarchy of trust to tell the reliable and unreliable pieces of information apart.

    Edit: also, to be able to back off from a situation where they've been misguided. That's a must when using potentially unreliable information.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  5. #15
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    ISTJ
    Enneagram
    5w6 sp/so
    Posts
    3,424

    Default

    It just occurred to me that I gave responses for what I say, but you were probably looking for responses for what I believe. That's much harder for me to self-analyze. What about consciously holding beliefs that contradict each other? ...Possible. I like to pick up ideas with the "never say never" mindset, because at any time they could be proven wrong or worthless, or surprisingly relevant. Of course, I would like that closure, also (because we're Js?), but I figure that you have to consider all the possibilities first, so closure often can't come as soon as you would like it.
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  6. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    ISTJ
    Posts
    109

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    It just occurred to me that I gave responses for what I say, but you were probably looking for responses for what I believe. That's much harder for me to self-analyze. What about consciously holding beliefs that contradict each other? ...Possible. I like to pick up ideas with the "never say never" mindset, because at any time they could be proven wrong or worthless, or surprisingly relevant. Of course, I would like that closure, also (because we're Js?), but I figure that you have to consider all the possibilities first, so closure often can't come as soon as you would like it.
    Can you give some examples of consciously holding beliefs that contradict each other? I honestly can't think of any...

    With regard to Santtu's last post (sorry - don't know how to quote more than one in a post) your example of math concepts is interesting. I teach introductory electrical engineering, and the math is a big part of what we do. Without getting into a math lecture, I point out that the names hypotenuse, complex number, vector, etc. are really just names for (mostly) diagonal lines. Too many try to internalize someone else's names and terms. I tell them the easiest way to understand it to think of them in your own words. Too many will simply say "that's what the author says" or something to that effect. It's much easier relying on others - and using scentific proofs isn't a bad thing - but the understanding by the individual (again, internalized) must still be there.

    Wrapping back to Cimarron's post, indeed closure is a good thing (not the attempt at closure). Perhaps we can't consider all of the possibilities, but we can consider all that we are aware of. We still recognize, of course, other factors or data may appear later that may cause us to change our conclusions, but we still need to operate based on what we know at the time, and not what may or may not be. If I can do that, then the "what ifs" are of no consequence.

    Very interesting stuff...
    ...doesn't work or play well with others...

Similar Threads

  1. xNTP and breadth and depth of knowledge
    By UnitOfPopulation in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 32
    Last Post: 10-28-2008, 01:03 AM
  2. low confidence and aware of it
    By UnitOfPopulation in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 28
    Last Post: 07-29-2008, 10:35 PM
  3. [MBTItm] NFs and (lack of) sense of direction
    By WobblyStilettos in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 33
    Last Post: 04-24-2008, 10:48 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO