[ESTJ] Friendship and Relationship Imbalances

[EJCC]

Making a new thread to avoid a derail.

From "What Pisses You Off About ESTJs?":

Their discomfort with emotion can cause problems in how I relate to them. They find vulnerability really difficult and sometimes can unwittingly try to maintain the upper hand as a means of self protection. They are great teachers, but find it really difficult to accept help or comfort from other people. As colleagues or acquaintances, it's no problem, but for closer relationships it creates an imbalance that I dislike.

^ 100% true in my experience. And the flip side of the coin is that it alienates ESTJs from everyone else, and can (but does not always) keep them from forming real, healthy relationships, with open communication.

How can we (i.e. ESTJs) address this imbalance? Is it possible? How can we better engage with people on their level?

 

[Fidelia]

I suppose it takes time to build up enough trust to be vulnerable, but there's also an element of will involved. We all have ways of avoiding being vulnerable which are expressed differently,depending on type, but which get in the way of intimacy and building trust, so it's not like estjs are alone in that.

Estjs tend to define themselves and value themselves in terms of their accomplishments and how independent and competent they are, so it is understandable that asking for help, sharing weaknesses or learning from someone else feels like the opposite of that. Maybe the first step is understanding that as long as it is done judiciously, and there is equal give and take, it is what allows others to feel close to you.

I find estj competency very appealing, and they are often generous and accomplished at sharing what they are good at. In a closer relationship though, being unwilling to let any help flow towards them indicates to the other person that they are not really needed nor are their abilities valued by the estj. I think often estjs don't understand how serious the impact of that realization is over time.

I think like many issues that become problems, it is the case of a good tool overused. We all have honed areas which we receive good feedback for, but sometimes when we rely too heavily on one strategy to protect a weakness of ours and to be valued by others, we become a slave to it at the expense of developing the weakness. A hammer is a great tool and one might even find a few unconventional uses for it, but there are certain jobs that would go much better using a different tool.

Over time, I think that identifying our overused tools can help to consciously become aware of what we are protecting as well as making our shapeless terrifying unconscious fears that we are pushed around by become concrete and conscious so they shrink down to a manageable size to address and so we are not just pushed into certain actions by unidentified emotion caused by our fears.

 

[Fidelia]

Emotion will always trump rational thought, so if you can identify what makes vulnerability so terrifying, it no longer generates the unexpected waves of emotion and then emotional reactions to thoae emotions.

Being more given to action than introspection, and also having feeling as their inferior function, emotion can seem superfluous and out of control and unwieldy to estjs and therefore avoided by them when it is unpleasant. However most emotion is there as a signal to move us toward action. If we shut it out entirely or just see it as a nuisance, it will still affect the way we function, but in a way that leaves us at its mercy, instead of it being a trusty servant.

While I understand that it is unlikely for estjs to unburden themselves of their deepest fears or sadnesses and vulnerabilities in a public way, I think maybe the first step is seeing oneself as two people - one like a kid that is sometimes afraid, angry, unreasonable, anxious etc, and one part as the adult who helps that kid through it. We often are much less communicative and harsher on ourselves than we would be with any child or any friend even. By removing it one step, it is easier to see both what the problem is, and also how to be compassionate and solution oriented. Less waves of emotion to trump your ability to think.

It might even help to try to write down what's going on first, rather than pushing oneself to share it with others right away. Practicing describing the problem in factual terms may also help the estj to feel more willing to explain whats up to those who are close. They are working with more info then and you lose the stigma felt around having a weakness. Again, seeing it as one step removed is helpful. Even saying that you are unsure of what to say but are feeling x emotion for some reason can be useful.

Like sharing information, I think maybe starting by allowing people to do small things for you without trying to direct the process is important. If you have to leave the room to manage it, do it. I think for many ejs the thought of giving up control is not just a preference thing, but it strikes at the heart of their identity because they define themselves in terms of what they are able to do.

To prevent fears from calcifying and spreading or deepening into phobias, the cure often is gradual exposure. In this case, allowing others to care for you in even small ways allows you to examine the resulting emotions or fears in manageable doses and also break through the initial barrier of accepting any help or fear of being seen as needy or incompetent.

 

[Fidelia]

In a practical sense:

- Finding even small ways where you accept some help or learn something new
- Don't just disappear or get more controlling when you are upset. Tell the people close to you that things aren't great even if you're not ready to talk yet.
- Bonus if you can indicate the general area surrounding what's bugging you and if someone can be helpful by making you comfort food or asking you questions or distracting you with something, give them some guidance.
- Express appreciation more than you are naturally inclined to do. This is money in the bank for the times when you don't or can't consciously do that.
- Privately, get used to looking for and writing down ways other people have helped you or what you can be grateful for. It's humbling to do so maybe, but creates a bridge to more naturally and easily acknowledge gratitude.
- Ask questions about how people do what they do well. This is less vulnerable than asking them to teach you something but conveys that you recognize that more people than yourself are competent.
- Express appreciation or affection for someone first, rather than just as a response. No one likes to feel like they are the only one taking chances emotionally.
- Don't offer solutions when people close to you are upset. If you never show weakness yourself and if you expect people to take your advice or not show emotion, or you minimize their response to something, it conveys that you think they are weak and need managing, rather than that they are your equal.
- Practice figuring out what you feel when you are upset and what triggered those feelings. Then the focus is off the feeling and onto searching for what that feeling is telling you to pay attention to. You could do this in a journal or with someone who just asks you questions to narrow it down. This doesn't have to be scary. Think of it like an emotional version of 20 questions, where the other person is just narrowing down the choices by asking what category the problem fits into.

Don't know if any of those are useful. I struggle with issues of what to do with emotions I dislike, power imbalances within the relationship and how to know myself and communicate my needs or wishes clearly, so you are certainly not alone!

 

[Fidelia]

Sorry, ejcc. Didn't mean to kill all conversation.

 

[EJCC]

Sorry, ejcc. Didn't mean to kill all conversation.

No no it's not your fault! Vacation has gotten in the way of my reply. Also you gave me so much great stuff to think about.

 

[EJCC]

Sorry for my slow processing.

First of a series of replies:

While I understand that it is unlikely for estjs to unburden themselves of their deepest fears or sadnesses and vulnerabilities in a public way, I think maybe the first step is seeing oneself as two people - one like a kid that is sometimes afraid, angry, unreasonable, anxious etc, and one part as the adult who helps that kid through it. We often are much less communicative and harsher on ourselves than we would be with any child or any friend even. By removing it one step, it is easier to see both what the problem is, and also how to be compassionate and solution oriented. Less waves of emotion to trump your ability to think.

This is a good reminder. I don't want to get too personal in this thread right now, but I think I need practice at this specific exercise. A lot of practice.

 

[EJCC]

[MENTION=7111]fidelia[/MENTION]

Question for you and for others, that would be helpful to me re: visualization.

Has an ESTJ you know ever gone too far in the other direction, in this regard? Asked for too much help? Been too needy and too raw? If so, what did that look like? If not, what do you think it would look like? How far would an ESTJ have to go, to go too far?

 

[miss fortune]

with the ESTJs I've spent a lot of time with, I'd just make sure that they were comfortable with me over time... spend time having fun with them, put effort into opening up to them a bit myself (NOT an easy task) and just letting them get comfortable in trusting me... over time they have tended to get comfortable enough to open up some

and when the opened up it was my job to listen to them without interrupting (also difficult) and then at the end validate what they said and offer constructive solutions instead of focusing on emotions... once the ESTJs learned that I was not going to make them sit around talking about emotions for hours on end they have usually been more comfortable with discussing things with me

though my advice as an 8 (also unwilling to discuss things) is to just push through it and realize that having flaws makes you human and sharing these flaws helps build a better connection to other humans. nobody trusts a robot, no matter how cool and efficient it is, and you'll tear yourself up if you keep everything inside all of the time... I know this. it's terrible to do every time I do it, but putting in the effort to just get things off my chest feels better (though embarrassing) in the end... and it's made me some closer friends over time as well.

 

[Fidelia]

I don't think I've ever seen an estj become too needy or oversharing. I suppose it's possible theoretically but what feels like over the top for you is likely on the conservative side of normal for others.

Of course I'm grossly generalizing as I recognize each individual is different even if type predisposes them towards some generalized behaviours.

 

[EJCC]

More replies to come when it isn't 2:30am.

I don't think I've ever seen an estj become too needy or oversharing. I suppose it's possible theoretically but what feels like over the top for you is likely on the conservative side of normal for others.

Of course I'm grossly generalizing as I recognize each individual is different even if type predisposes them towards some generalized behaviours.

I don't know why, after years of hearing this from people, I never believe it. It feels like a challenge -- like a rule just waiting to be broken.

It is reassuring to know, though, that you say this even after being a regular reader of my (at times embarrassingly) vulnerable and needy blog.

I find estj competency very appealing, and they are often generous and accomplished at sharing what they are good at. In a closer relationship though, being unwilling to let any help flow towards them indicates to the other person that they are not really needed nor are their abilities valued by the estj. I think often estjs don't understand how serious the impact of that realization is over time.

I suspect other ESTJs are the same as me, in that they clearly and directly see exactly what they appreciate about people and why/how they are needed and valued, but they don't see that information as "relevant" most of the time, so they keep it to themselves. I've gotten good at articulating that appreciation in a work setting -- with some practice! -- but I haven't learned that in my personal life. Maybe I assume that people can read my mind, because I assume everyone is better at reading people than I am?

Regardless -- I initially wasn't sure if this part of your post applied to me, but then I realized that I really don't articulate those sorts of things to my close friends. Not unless I'm in a really, really bad place, which is rarely.

 

[chubber]

More replies to come when it isn't 2:30am.


I don't know why, after years of hearing this from people, I never believe it. It feels like a challenge -- like a rule just waiting to be broken.

It is reassuring to know, though, that you say this even after being a regular reader of my (at times embarrassingly) vulnerable and needy blog.


I suspect other ESTJs are the same as me, in that they clearly and directly see exactly what they appreciate about people and why/how they are needed and valued, but they don't see that information as "relevant" most of the time, so they keep it to themselves. I've gotten good at articulating that appreciation in a work setting -- with some practice! -- but I haven't learned that in my personal life. Maybe I assume that people can read my mind, because I assume everyone is better at reading people than I am?

Regardless -- I initially wasn't sure if this part of your post applied to me, but then I realized that I really don't articulate those sorts of things to my close friends. Not unless I'm in a really, really bad place, which is rarely.

Do you have e8 or e9 in you?

 

[Ursa]

I suspect other ESTJs are the same as me, in that they clearly and directly see exactly what they appreciate about people and why/how they are needed and valued, but they don't see that information as "relevant" most of the time, so they keep it to themselves.

My focus is on getting things done and making sure things work. Paying attention to what's going right is like putting on a tool belt and then standing in front of a completely functional furnace. There would be nothing to work on.

Well, that's what my Te says. The reality is that people work better when they are motivated and feel valued. It's a problem that every Te-dom probably has.

 

[EJCC]

Do you have e8 or e9 in you?

My wings are becoming more balanced over time -- you're not the first person in the past few months to ask if I've got 9 in me. It's taken a lot of work to get here.

I've erroneously tested as an 8 since I first discovered the Enneagram. I believe that part of what makes me a 1 is that I have an inner 8 who never sees the light of day, because I'd be horribly ashamed if I let her out. (Not to mention, I strongly relate to the 1 integration/disintegration path.)

 

[Z Buck McFate]

[MENTION=7111]fidelia[/MENTION]

Question for you and for others, that would be helpful to me re: visualization.

Has an ESTJ you know ever gone too far in the other direction, in this regard? Asked for too much help? Been too needy and too raw? If so, what did that look like? If not, what do you think it would look like? How far would an ESTJ have to go, to go too far?

When I think "needy ESTJ", ime, that looks like someone getting up in my business and needing me to have the same goals/priorities and getting scary angry when I simply don't care/don't share them. Like, panicky angry. As if <incoming assumption> they're displacing all the urgency of other unattended-to feelings onto some 'common' goal/priority and getting angry when others don't 'see' that it's a 'common' goal/priority (because it isn't really 'common'- this is how ESTJs come across like the borg, as trying to impose 'truth' on others through sheer willpower).

I can't imagine an ESTJ erring in the direction of letting the 'kid' in that visualization take over though, so long as the 'kid' metaphor is understood correctly (if I understand it correctly myself). If only because ESTJs seem to be primarily made of the adult stuff that wants to snuff the kid stuff out.

And anyway, if you feel needy, that's an important thing to acknowledge. It means you have needs you aren't attending to. I think it's important to realize that no one- at the very, very core- is "too needy". Being "too needy" is something that happens when we're grabbing at things that aren't really needs but rather things that anesthetize our unwanted emotions: we aren't actually tending to our needs, but are instead caught in a vicious cycle of ignoring them. When we figure out what our needs are and learn to attend to them, we can stop 'grabbing' at things that simply anesthetize unwanted emotions. It's kind of like the difference between eating real food and eating pictures of food: when we eat real food, we stop feeling hungry. If a person is hungry to a fault/constantly distracted by hunger ("too needy")- it isn't because there's something wrong with them, it's only because they haven't figured out they've been eating pictures of food instead of real food. If that makes sense. [And it's super important to realize if we feel "too needy", because people who ARE "too needy" without realizing it invariably just end up using others in that never-ending vicious cycle of doing what it takes to anesthetize unwanted feelings....they're not 'bad' people per se, but caught in a behavior pattern that isn't fair to other people and generally ends up driving people away.]

Feeling "too needy" is something I struggle with myself. It's an e5 thing to loathe the prospect of needing others. Something e5s do to anesthetize unwanted emotions is to learn the sh*t out of something so that our competency isn't questioned or so that we don't have to rely on others for anything- when we should actually put effort into being okay with being questioned or learn to trust our instincts so that we can rely on others/trust interdependence instead. The more we flee towards learning the sh*t out of something, the more the latter abilities atrophy and the less independent we actually become.

 

[Fidelia]

Outside of a work situation, most people often aren't given much feedback about themselves, or if they are, it's often negative. As an infj, I especially need to know how those close to me perceive me and also what role I play in their lives. If I know what they appreciate, I will go way out of my way to give them more. I think that estjs often forget that for some types at least, offering feedback for what does matter to you or what you would value not only makes the other person feel good, but it steers them away from some of the things you might find bothersome, without you having to control the whole process. Maybe that is useful to keep in mind.

For estjs, it's very difficult to relinquish control, even in nice things people do for you. Maybe appreciation still allows you to rest in receiving something from someone, without you having to direct them every step of the way. It's a small step in developing other skills than just managing everything and having to be "on" all the time. Then you have a chance to rest a bit in what other people want to offer you, rather than always rigging the draw so your needs can get met. To me, that's what seems needy, not vulnerability.

As a silly example to illustrate, you could buy yourself your ideal Christmas present, wrap it up impeccably and then get the other person to buy it from you to give to you. You would be sure to get what you want, but it negates the whole purpose of giving presents. However, if instead you made sure that you gave especially warm feedback for presents you've really liked, or mention your needs or interests to the people close to you, you'd still get a present you liked, but you didn't have to make it happen. You just gave the person enough guidance that they could be successful, but you gave them agency in the process. See the difference? They might not wrap it like you would have, but you've allowed yourself to depend on their care which creates trust and appreciation between you in a way you buying the gift would not.

 

[Fidelia]

I like Z Buck's example of eating food vs pictures of food. I think we all have different substitutes for real food that we use, rather than taking care of the need properly. Then we become afraid of the need itself, rather than understanding we've just been using an ineffective method of addressing the need. For a long time I've tried to rationalize myself out of feeling certain ways, yet those feelings indicate unmet needs and should be prompting me to action instead of talking myself out of the emotion. Eventually, the emotions all explode out like an overstuffed suitcase. It's much better to look at what they're telling me one by one, as they come up.

I'm also embarrassed of having needs, particularly when I can't take care of them without help. I like being seen as low maintenance and independent. Over time, I've realized that emotions need a venue for safe expression, much like going to the bathroom. It's not weird to have that biological need to eliminate waste, nothing to be embarrassed about. If you put emotions on hold indefinitely, it's like trying to will yourself out of needing the toilet. Eventually you get no choice for when or where it all comes out, or you do harm to your body. By choosing who you are vulnerable in front of and when those needs are expressed, you actually are being much less of a trouble to people and it will result in less embarrassment for you too. It may be inconvenient at times to have to, but the alternative is much worse.

 

[Fidelia]

Oh yeah! Just skimmed a book by Amanda Palmer of the Dresden Dolls, who later married Neil Gaiman. She funded a lot of her earlier career through learning to invite people to help with her projects and gave a very successful TED talk about why we all find it so hard to ask for help, even though people want to help. Even later, she was afraid to even take temporary loans from her husband lest other people perceived her as a gold digger etc. In any case, I think some of the points she made in there about vulnerability and other people's perceptions would be applicable here too. I'll see if I can dig up the name of the book.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Emotion will always trump rational thought, so if you can identify what makes vulnerability so terrifying, it no longer generates the unexpected waves of emotion and then emotional reactions to thoae emotions.

The two systems are not incompatible. Just badly understood.

Emotions don't "always trump rational thought" because emotions comprise part of an actual rational system. The emotional system is thus compatible with the thinking system. Treating them like they aren't connected is the error here.

[MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION], you just probably haven't met many folks IRL who are competent in handling their own emotions, never mind helping you with yours. Who is the person who most enables you to feel like yourself? Who do you know if you were to show your emotions would not try to fix them, minimize them or denigrate them? Who is tender and allows your emotions to exist without judgement? This is the person to practice openness with. Be open and you will receive open.

And, flip side -- you simply need to be that which you wish to find. Finding a person who needs to receive the grace of being heard without restraint will enable you to attract such a source yourself. Is the way these things work.

 

[Fidelia]

I understand that the two systems are inextricably interconnected and aid one another symbiotically. I just mean that there is no way to rationalize yourself out of an indication that there is a need. If you don't pay attention to the initial indication, it will assert itself in some way, even if it needs to circumvent conscious reasoning about it. I think for many years I've seen emotions as something bothersome to be worked around, rather than acknowledging that there is a valuable purpose in them finding expression and bringing needs to conscious awareness, regardless of what the final outcome is.

Lately, I've been exploring articulating my needs out loud and have been surprised to realize in the process how much gets accomplished by doing so, both as far as personal self awareness and understanding, as well as within the relationship.