[ESFJ] The Drama Queen

[Mal12345]

There is nothing like a little drama, or even a lot of drama if that's what it takes, to serve the ESFJ's concrete goals. Indirect manipulation is a means of direct control when seen in terms of social strategy.

Reverse psychology. If an ESFJ tells you to do one thing, and you do just the opposite, then that may just satisfy the ESFJs immediate concrete goal. It's all part of the drama of being human in a social environment involving emotions and desires that come and go. If an ESFJ suddenly decides to take care of your needs, when they never seemed to care before, then you know something must be going on behind the scenes, either emotionally or socially.

An ESFJ has to have complete control over every social situation they are involved in, or else all hell will break loose. If you don't seem to feel right to them, according to the ESFJs notion of rightness, then you will be corrected, and that often involves some form of punitive action.

Contrary to what Jung said about the Fe dominant type, the ESFJ is an aggressive personality type. Obedience to social authority is not the end, it is a means to another end, as is disobedience to authority. An ESFJ who is not in a position of authority knows how to manipulate authority to get their own needs met. For example, an ESFJ student dislikes the school he is in. So he will break rules and get bad grades, eventually being kicked out and hopefully end up in the more desirable school. The long-term consequences don't matter to him. Who gives a sh*t about one's "permanent record"? The immediate goal is what counts.

Lying. There is nothing wrong with it if it leads to the greater good, right? Depending on the ESFJ's character, that greater good may be socially valuable or selfishly valuable. So that may or may not be a greater good in terms of social values, just "greater" in the ESFJ's own eyes. An example of a socially valuable method is the book "Go Ask Alice," originally presented as the actual diary of a teenage girl, and claimed by the publisher to be based on a real diary. In fact, the book is a work of complete fiction. But the author's purpose was to prevent teenage girls from disobeying their parents by showing them the consequences of disobedience. That's an example of the social ends justifying the means. The author went on to publish other fictional "real diaries" designed to promote social values. But the ESFJ type will also not hesitate to lie with regard to achieving selfish ends. Depending on maturity level, the ESFJ may only pretend to have a greater good in view, or it may be an actual greater good.

Anger. The ESFJ is never responsible for their own anger, it was someone else, or something else, that caused it. The purpose of the anger is to change the social environment so that the ESFJ can return to a state of placid calmness. The ESFJ desires peace but nevertheless seems to attract social chaos that needs to be brought under control. When things don't go their way, all hell breaks loose either through direct anger or subtle manipulation which, when that fails, leads to direct anger. Although desiring peace and calm, the ESFJ will sometimes evoke chaos just to give them something to bring under control.

Revenge. The ESFJ, despite the (implied) selfishness and aggressive undercurrents, has strong feelings of duty and values their friendships strongly. If you fly in the face of their values and loyalties, you will not likely enjoy the result of your malfeasance.

Social Purpose. The ESFJ thrives best on having a purpose in the social realm. The ESFJ could find a purpose in being the high school class president, or as a grandparent the purpose might be helping to raise the grandchildren by trying to make up for the (perceived) mistakes of the parents. An ESFJ without purpose will sink into a self- and other-destructive depression.

 

[Yama]

Unhealthy ESFJs, sure. Though not ESFJs as a whole or even as a majority.

 

[Mal12345]

Unhealthy ESFJs, sure. Though not ESFJs as a whole or even as a majority.

Why? Did you take a poll or something? I guess you agreed with me in a way. But if you want to read about ESFJs as a one-sided mentally healthy type, then there are many MBTI webpages where you can read about it.

Also, this part wasn't negative, "Social Purpose. The ESFJ thrives best on having a purpose in the social realm. The ESFJ could find a purpose in being the high school class president, or as a grandparent the purpose might be helping to raise the grandchildren by trying to make up for the (perceived) mistakes of the parents."

 

[Mal12345]

Unhealthy ESFJs, sure. Though not ESFJs as a whole or even as a majority.

In a sense, I'm explaining here why I typed Hillary as an ESFJ (and then an ISFJ). The problem is that you don't get a clear picture about all the negatives in types simply by reading about them. Instead what you read for "Negatives" are things like this:

"It can be especially challenging to change these tendencies because ESFJs are so conflict-averse. ESFJ personalities can become very defensive and hurt if someone, especially a person close to them, criticizes their habits, beliefs or traditions."

In reality, that's true. ESFJs can be "very defensive and hurt." On the other hand, you may also find yourself in the greatest emotional shit-storm of your life.

 

[Forever]

Is this a soap opera?
Yes human nature can be ugly, but what's the purpose of saying this where almost no one here is an ESFJ? Nobody here talks about "my ESFJ husband or wife".

Just sounds like a rant: type edition, can't verify if it is all true or it's just one person that's being talked about with no name

 

[Mal12345]

Is this a soap opera?
Yes human nature can be ugly, but what's the purpose of saying this where almost no one here is an ESFJ? Nobody here talks about "my ESFJ husband or wife".

Just sounds like a rant: type edition, can't verify if it is all true or it's just one person that's being talked about with no name

"Sounds like" is a subjective statement. My last thread on typology was about the ESTP type and it went over well.

Soap operas exist because some people like to see that kind of drama, either because they live it or they want to live it, just like I want to live in a science fiction universe. Art (or the semblance of it) represents a personal ideal.

 

[Mal12345]

I'm not worried about whether or not the OP sounds like such and such or has a "bad vibe." I'm more concerned about its accuracy. I had an ESFJ (called [MENTION=22089]ESFJ[/MENTION]) tell me it is accurate, only not representative of a majority. That's not proven, but it doesn't matter, because I'm trying to represent a reality, not a majority.

 

[prplchknz]

Is this a soap opera? Yes human nature can be ugly, but what's the purpose of saying this where almost no one here is an ESFJ? Nobody here talks about "my ESFJ husband or wife". Just sounds like a rant: type edition, can't verify if it is all true or it's just one person that's being talked about with no name

congratulations on having someone be both your wife and husband at the same time

 

[Forever]

"Sounds like" is a subjective statement. My last thread on typology was about the ESTP type and it went over well.

Soap operas exist because some people like to see that kind of drama, either because they live it or they want to live it, just like I want to live in a science fiction universe. Art (or the semblance of it) represents a personal ideal.

I don't want to live in any soap opera certainly not Breaking Bad either. Especially all you see is the three living rooms and once in a while the kitchen of each of those homes. And quite often the bedroom.

In Spanish ones: a slap on the face, a gun and some beautiful looking people are all required to make the daily evening ones.

It'd seem like hell to live that life on repeat over and over.

 

[Forever]

congratulations on having someone be both your wife and husband at the same time

Can you believe that only ESFJ's have that power?

 

[prplchknz]

Can you believe that only ESFJ's have that power?

no how is that possible ?

 

[Mal12345]

I don't want to live in any soap opera certainly not Breaking Bad either. Especially all you see is the three living rooms and once in a while the kitchen of each of those homes. And quite often the bedroom.

In Spanish ones: a slap on the face, a gun and some beautiful looking people are all required to make the daily evening ones.

It'd seem like hell to live that life on repeat over and over.

The Guiding Light (canceled) had some interesting little story-lines and sometimes took you outdoors if that was required for the story. The thing I don't like about soap operas is too much yackety-yack.

 

[Forever]

no how is that possible ?

Simple: they're superhumans why else are they so nice and kind to people? Everything is easy for them. Lol

 

[prplchknz]

Simple: they're superhumans why else are they so nice and kind to people? Everything is easy for them. Lol

oooooh

 

[EonsInTheNight]

Honestly, I have an overall good impressions of ESFJs (better than ESTJs and ESTPs), but I do agree that the typical type description of this type don't match reality too well.
They can be rude without giving you any reason, or if they have a reason, they ignore your intentions and meaning for the sake of what they thought. Of course, that is, if you're not a popular person, if you're popular person you can get with all kinds of shit in their eyes (although that's a social issue overall, how people that are deemed outsiders are more easily judged than people who are consider ''normal'' even when their character was proven rotten over and over again).
Honestly, as an INFP I feel that I'm more careful with not hurting other people than they are, yet don't let type descriptions tell you anything but how Fe is considerate and Fi is not. Fe is about ''socially appropriate'' while Fi is about what's good or bad regardless of the social factors, and ''socially appropriate'' is not the same with being nice, polite or emphatic. It's about maintaining certain norms and rules and behaviors among people, more than a few times without actually considering who gets hurt in the process.
They also like criticizing people, and I don't mean for their moral faults, but for the smallest thing they didn't do right.
They can also have an aggressive temper some of them, although I do believe there are ESFJ who aren't capable of aggressive behavior, some lash at people from the smallest things.
They can also be selfish, again don't expect type descriptions to tell you that, but while other types can be altruistic overall, SFJs are about the people they grew up with first, everyone else depends.
They're much more similar with ESTJ than type description tell you.

SFJs method, unlike ENFJ, seems not to be about seeing the good in the person and supporting them grew, but seeing the bad in the person, pointing them and then convince others that they're so useless that they have no choice but depend on them.
Many children's and husbands/wives self-esteem was probably destroyed by SFJ parents/partners.

At the same, this are faults in ESFJs behavior, rather than theire overall picture.
On the good side, they're more well-meaning to people than ESTP/ESTJ (who by contrast are much more ''gossip'' enthusiasts than type descriptions would tell you. I mean, listen to ESTP rap music, is mostly bitching about other after bosting about their manliness). It seems to me that if someone is antiphatic to an ESTx they'll devaluate all their human quality in conversations, by comparisons ESFJs will be quite critical of them but will still have certain limits they won't cross -unless influenced by ESTx around them, and part of them still remembers they're talking about a human being more so than ESTx.
Again, not all ESTx are like that, but it's a tendency I observed.

Also, I feel that ESFJ might be the most overall balanced type, in the sense they would be most fit to rebuild the human society if they will be the only ones left. They're sensitive but also pragmatic, sentimental but down-to-earth etc., they're sort of more complete than other types.

So yeah, not the nice, always polite, nurturing by the default people you find in descriptions. Although I do think there are also ESFJ who are genuinly very altruistic and well-meaning towards all people, and who are probably the nicest people ever, I think this type descriptions just take the best examples in a type and then describe the whole type from them, like they describe the more mature and well-raised of ESFJ as examples of ESFJ overall.
Still, if I were to make a classification of my most liked and least liked of types, ESFJ would be above other types for sure.
They have a very human quality to them (ENFJs as well), like they present a picture of what it means to be a human being overall, which makes them very endearing to me overall despite their faults.
Not because of their complexities, but because they will carry who they are on the surface. The are ESFJs who become so artificial they almost look like a mockery or charicature, but most of them will carry their person on their face (unlike they FPs who keep a great deal to themselves, and the Ts who deny parts of themselves), which makes them very likeable people.

I also find that while I like to interact with ESFPs on one-to-one person better, I prefer hanging around ESFJs, they seem like a type of people it's worth listening to (as long as you keep them from preaching you).

 

[prplchknz]

one of my best friends is ESFJ and i would not call her a drama queen maybe highly sensitive and worry about how everyone in the group is feeling and worried about hurting people and people liking her but that might not be type related completely. like for example she's going to teach highschool chemistry for a semester and she was like what if the kids don't like me and say mean stuff about me? and I go they're 17, what does it matter? most 17 year olds aren't the best to be around. though I'm convinced 14 is worse. i'm like you're over 10 years older than them. and like [MENTION=31311]EonsInTheNight[/MENTION] pointed out that they can become like carcitures of themselves, and thats sort of true but the way my friend does it is when she makes appointments or talks to a boss her accent completely changes like it sounds nothing like her. and she cares a lot about social rules not if others follow it so much, but she saves everything and i mean everything. but i don't think she's a drama queen maybe in her teens and early 20s but she's grown out of that, and there were people who were bigger drama queens. now the friend that would be a drama queen is the ESFP.

 

[Mal12345]

Honestly, I have an overall good impressions of ESFJs (better than ESTJs and ESTPs), but I do agree that the typical type description of this type don't match reality too well.
They can be rude without giving you any reason, or if they have a reason, they ignore your intentions and meaning for the sake of what they thought. Of course, that is, if you're not a popular person, if you're popular person you can get with all kinds of shit in their eyes (although that's a social issue overall, how people that are deemed outsiders are more easily judged than people who are consider ''normal'' even when their character was proven rotten over and over again).
Honestly, as an INFP I feel that I'm more careful with not hurting other people than they are, yet don't let type descriptions tell you anything but how Fe is considerate and Fi is not. Fe is about ''socially appropriate'' while Fi is about what's good or bad regardless of the social factors, and ''socially appropriate'' is not the same with being nice, polite or emphatic. It's about maintaining certain norms and rules and behaviors among people, more than a few times without actually considering who gets hurt in the process.
They also like criticizing people, and I don't mean for their moral faults, but for the smallest thing they didn't do right.
They can also have an aggressive temper some of them, although I do believe there are ESFJ who aren't capable of aggressive behavior, some lash at people from the smallest things.
They can also be selfish, again don't expect type descriptions to tell you that, but while other types can be altruistic overall, SFJs are about the people they grew up with first, everyone else depends.
They're much more similar with ESTJ than type description tell you.

SFJs method, unlike ENFJ, seems not to be about seeing the good in the person and supporting them grew, but seeing the bad in the person, pointing them and then convince others that they're so useless that they have no choice but depend on them.
Many children's and husbands/wives self-esteem was probably destroyed by SFJ parents/partners.

At the same, this are faults in ESFJs behavior, rather than theire overall picture.
On the good side, they're more well-meaning to people than ESTP/ESTJ (who by contrast are much more ''gossip'' enthusiasts than type descriptions would tell you. I mean, listen to ESTP rap music, is mostly bitching about other after bosting about their manliness). It seems to me that if someone is antiphatic to an ESTx they'll devaluate all their human quality in conversations, by comparisons ESFJs will be quite critical of them but will still have certain limits they won't cross -unless influenced by ESTx around them, and part of them still remembers they're talking about a human being more so than ESTx.
Again, not all ESTx are like that, but it's a tendency I observed.

Also, I feel that ESFJ might be the most overall balanced type, in the sense they would be most fit to rebuild the human society if they will be the only ones left. They're sensitive but also pragmatic, sentimental but down-to-earth etc., they're sort of more complete than other types.

So yeah, not the nice, always polite, nurturing by the default people you find in descriptions. Although I do think there are also ESFJ who are genuinly very altruistic and well-meaning towards all people, and who are probably the nicest people ever, I think this type descriptions just take the best examples in a type and then describe the whole type from them, like they describe the more mature and well-raised of ESFJ as examples of ESFJ overall.
Still, if I were to make a classification of my most liked and least liked of types, ESFJ would be above other types for sure.
They have a very human quality to them (ENFJs as well), like they present a picture of what it means to be a human being overall, which makes them very endearing to me overall despite their faults.
Not because of their complexities, but because they will carry who they are on the surface. The are ESFJs who become so artificial they almost look like a mockery or charicature, but most of them will carry their person on their face (unlike they FPs who keep a great deal to themselves, and the Ts who deny parts of themselves), which makes them very likeable people.

I also find that while I like to interact with ESFPs on one-to-one person better, I prefer hanging around ESFJs, they seem like a type of people it's worth listening to (as long as you keep them from preaching you).

Bravo!

That was great. I don't think people understand how difficult it is to write a type description without making it either too specific or too general. Too specific would be something like "likes to drive fast." Something too general would apply to multiple types. But you did a great job of walking that fine line.

When people cut me down with statements such as "you're just describing your wife or someone you know," they aren't understanding that even if I did so the description would be too specific. Or if they say I'm angry, what's really going on is that I find the type descriptions to be so sparkly clean that they could probably make even a turd seem good enough to eat. They don't understand that writing these things requires effort, not anger.

At least Riso's enneagram descriptions give all sides of a type.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Unhealthy ESFJs, sure. Though not ESFJs as a whole or even as a majority.

Agreed. It even stands to reason that the most prevalent personality types could have the greatest diversity as a result of the sheer numbers. I've known various ESFJs who are extremely contrasted from one another. Some are very dominant and forceful, some are very cooperative and sensitive. You get a huge diversity within each category, and this absolutely includes ESFJs. Any type can be incredibly aggressive - even INFPs. Every type can be incredibly accommodating, including ESTJs. I can see some premise for saying that Je-doms on average can be more socially assertive than Ji, Pe, or Pi doms, but that's about the extent of the truth of such an assumption.

Edit: I also like what some of the ENFP posters have been saying about focusing on motivations over specific behaviors when analyzing type. Behaviors can result from a wide variety of motivations and cultural influences, so understanding 'why' someone does something helps more with understanding.

 

[Mal12345]

Agreed. It even stands to reason that the most prevalent personality types could have the greatest diversity as a result of the sheer numbers. I've known various ESFJs who are extremely contrasted from one another. Some are very dominant and forceful, some are very cooperative and sensitive. You get a huge diversity within each category, and this absolutely includes ESFJs. Any type can be incredibly aggressive - even INFPs. Every type can be incredibly accommodating, including ESTJs. I can see some premise for saying that Je-doms on average can be more socially assertive than Ji, Pe, or Pi doms, but that's about the extent of the truth of such an assumption.

Edit: I also like what some of the ENFP posters have been saying about focusing on motivations over specific behaviors when analyzing type. Behaviors can result from a wide variety of motivations and cultural influences, so understanding 'why' someone does something helps more with understanding.

It's not just about aggression, but the reason for it. Is my writing so unreadable?

I did mention level of maturity with regard to behaviors among various ESFJs. And I don't consider what I wrote to be complete by any means. A mature ESFJ has learned to balance aggression with wisdom or at least a more pragmatic attitude toward themselves and others. Otherwise they will spend their lives being selfish and demanding of others. There has to be a balancing of personal and social needs or else eventually this attitude is going to catch up with them through losing jobs, going through divorce after divorce, and always blaming circumstances throughout due to a constant feeling of entitlement. "I'm such a good person, and I give of myself constantly, so I should be forgiven for a little bit of extortion." Minimizing (or outright denial) and excusing their own faults are two of their most common defense mechanism. The most common means of minimizing is to point a finger at others who did the same thing and "always get away with it," or comparing themselves to worse types of people in their eyes.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Just for fun, it could be interesting to start doing more comparison/contrast analysis of people within a type. I've had two ESFJ mother-in-laws who were quite different from each other.

The first was a very dominant personality who would pull people in to 'volunteer' for various projects she was focused on doing. She did a lot of charitable work and tended to go over the top with any project. If she was planting a garden, it would be way too big, so the overflow of food would have to be given away. This created a lot of work for everyone around her and she tended to assume everyone would help. She was good at putting social and guilt pressure on others to join in, and fwiw, her projects were always very helpful to someone. She would look at introverts who spend time thinking as lazy, and so we came up with a little joke saying 'not lazy, just busy on the inside'. She also was good at keeping the family together, gathering everyone around for family events and holidays. She liked to recreate the Thanksgiving meal that was familiar and traditional for her. She never thought much about who I am, and I don't even really know her opinion of me, except that she tended to ignore some of my needs in favor of her son's. She also used to tell whimsical bedtime stories to her many younger siblings when she was a teenager.

My second mother-in-law is very sensitive, submissive and a little nervous, but tries to think of everything. She has some tendency to assume I am like people she has known before. She was surprised to find out I drink coffee because she saw me drinking tea and the people she knows are one or the other. She is thoughtful and sweet, but tends to be giving on her terms, and will tend to give gifts that she values but may not be useful. She gives us tons of sweets and then an article about reducing belly fat. That's specific to her, but also a bit confusing because of the inconsistency. I think she wants her gifts to be well received and who doesn't like cake, cookies, and chocolate? But then she feels guilty about it when her son starts gaining weight. She talks about her past experiences and likes everything to be pleasant, peaceful, and lovely. I don't feel like she investigates much about who I am either. It is more focused on getting the family together. She also likes whimsical comedies and silly stories.

Both stay busy keeping everything in order and both are the ones to bring family together and keep in touch. Both give off a vibe of taking care of everything and sometimes feeling overwhelmed. Both have an occasional expression of a hidden whimsy.

I also know some young ESFJs who are very cheerful, sporty, and involved in tons of activities. They are runners, take music lessons, go out with friends, are always smiling and busy. The commonalities tend to be that ESFJs are socially invested - their own identity and efforts are focused on keeping everyone together, whether that is family or friends. They can be good at delegating tasks to help coordinate everything and can do this diplomatically or forcefully. They are often busy getting everything necessary completed. They define people based on behaviors and things that they do and accomplish.

That's still a small sample set, but that's my impressions fwiw to throw into the pot of stew.