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  1. #51
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Somewhat related to the thread topic, I've found in Keirsey's description of SJs some "good" and "bad" ways of describing this "obligation."

    Some phrases I identified the most with:

    "Desire to be useful to others"--which he connected with a need to belong
    "If I don't do it, who will?"
    "Respect and rewards must be earned through hard work"

    Also, what is he saying here? "Here is no freeloader urging his dependency upon the donor as if it were his god-given right. Dependency, for the SJ, is neither a legitimate condition nor desire. The SJ feels guilty for his dependency as if negligent of his obligations..."

    Is he saying that SJs feel guilty when relying on someone else, because they feel like they're putting a burden on that someone else?



    And the OP:
    Quote Originally Posted by substitute
    Just curious... something going on in my life at the moment that's making me wonder if SJ life is like living under constant feelings of obligation to one thing after another... and whether these obligations are resented by the SJ or not, and whether there's any way for an SJ to understand a person not feeling obligated by the same things without concluding that that person is therefore a bad person?

    Obligations like... oh, anything. But things that are not actually legal obligations, I mean, things you do, in a real sense, have the choice as to whether or not you fulfill them as opposed to things that you'd be arrested for not fulfilling like paying taxes and stuff.

    So, things like...[examples]
    To tell you the truth, most of those things I've learned to do because people I respect have implied or insisted that I should do them. And so I've done them at first for the purpose of getting along with that person, and to see why they valued doing it, plus like I said I generally trust them. Sometimes, I resist doing it at first, though, so it might be with a little bit of resentment in the beginning. But then again, isn't that the way an SJ might be inclined to react?
    Last edited by Cimarron; 01-02-2009 at 02:33 AM. Reason: answering the OP
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  2. #52
    Perfect Gentleman! =D d@v3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    Somewhat related to the thread topic, I've found in Keirsey's description of SJs some "good" and "bad" ways of describing this "obligation."

    Some phrases I identified the most with:

    "Desire to be useful to others"--which he connected with a need to belong
    "If I don't do it, who will?"
    "Respect and rewards must be earned through hard work"

    Also, what is he saying here? "Here is no freeloader urging his dependency upon the donor as if it were his god-given right. Dependency, for the SJ, is neither a legitimate condition nor desire. The SJ feels guilty for his dependency as if negligent of his obligations..."

    Is he saying that SJs feel guilty when relying on someone else, because they feel like they're putting a burden on that someone else?



    And the OP:
    To tell you the truth, most of those things I've learned to do because people I respect have implied or insisted that I should do them. And so I've done them at first for the purpose of getting along with that person, and to see why they valued doing it, plus like I said I generally trust them. Sometimes, I resist doing it at first, though, so it might be with a little bit of resentment in the beginning. But then again, isn't that the way an SJ might be inclined to react?
    That is a really good post, I feel the same way. I don't like depending on other people, yet I don't mind when people depend on me- depending on what it is they want to depend on me for.

    Like Cimarron said, I think I learned those things from the people I grew up around and the people who have guided me through life thus far. It is also linear and logical: Hard Work= Good Rewards.

    If I don't have "obligations" I will get bored and being bored for me is VERY annoying and can be slightly depressing for me sometimes. Why? Becuase when your bored, and you don't have anyone else to socialize with and/or take care of, you get to thinking about yourself and why your bored in the first place! I hope that makes sense!
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  3. #53
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    STJs would prefer thinking obligated, right? Oh, I'm a kidder.

  4. #54
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    Also, what is he saying here? "Here is no freeloader urging his dependency upon the donor as if it were his god-given right. Dependency, for the SJ, is neither a legitimate condition nor desire. The SJ feels guilty for his dependency as if negligent of his obligations..."

    Is he saying that SJs feel guilty when relying on someone else, because they feel like they're putting a burden on that someone else?
    That's not really how I feel about it. For me, I hate depending on people because I get this overwhelming, awful sense of inadequacy when I do. I feel like if I depend on someone to do a thing for me, then that means that I am incapable of doing that thing. For me, there isn't a lot that's worse than being reminded of my inadequacy. (There's always been a part of me that wishes I was good at everything...) I feel the same way when I get things wrong.

    That's why we ESTJs are so obnoxious when we're wrong, ftr - we get very embarrassed, almost ashamed. We see being wrong as absolute intellectual failure. Maybe it's the same way with dependency..? I wonder if other SJs are like that too...
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  5. #55
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    That's not really how I feel about it. For me, I hate depending on people because I get this overwhelming, awful sense of inadequacy when I do. I feel like if I depend on someone to do a thing for me, then that means that I am incapable of doing that thing. For me, there isn't a lot that's worse than being reminded of my inadequacy. (There's always been a part of me that wishes I was good at everything...) I feel the same way when I get things wrong.

    That's why we ESTJs are so obnoxious when we're wrong, ftr - we get very embarrassed, almost ashamed. We see being wrong as absolute intellectual failure. Maybe it's the same way with dependency..? I wonder if other SJs are like that too...
    This is my immediate reaction to the question "How does it feel to rely on someone else?", that's true. But trying to understand what the professionals are saying, I can see it in the way I mentioned above, too.

    But it's like I'm thinking of two different situations here. Varies from activity to activity? Or maybe it's two different mindsets. I'm not sure.

    Edit: Maybe this. Giving up what was originally your task to someone else, and having to rely on them--that would definitely fit EJCC's example. The dependency switched hands, though; originally they were relying on you.

    And I don't really agree with Dave's last paragraph about obligation...

    This stuff about SJs just never adds up. When are we going to find something that makes sense?


    More thoughts and input from SJs, please.

    ---
    Last edited by Cimarron; 01-02-2009 at 06:19 PM. Reason: more input?
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  6. #56
    Perfect Gentleman! =D d@v3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    And I don't really agree with Dave's last paragraph about obligation...

    This stuff about SJs just never adds up. When are we going to find something that makes sense?


    More thoughts and input from SJs, please.

    ---
    Well, when I don't have any obligations to fulfill or they are already met, I need something (or someone) to talk to or keep me busy. This could possibly be video games or even work. I need to be accomplishing something. With the work obviously making money, in the game, possibly getting to that new level. Anything to keep my mind off previous dissapointments and naccomplishments.

    The depression part doesn't kick in until boredom gets REALLY bad. (months/years of dissapointment or unaccomplishments)

    Hmmm... I'm at a loss of words on how to explain this.
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  7. #57
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by d@v3 View Post
    Well, when I don't have any obligations to fulfill or they are already met, I need something (or someone) to talk to or keep me busy. This could possibly be video games or even work. I need to be accomplishing something. With the work obviously making money, in the game, possibly getting to that new level. Anything to keep my mind off previous dissapointments and naccomplishments.

    The depression part doesn't kick in until boredom gets REALLY bad. (months/years of dissapointment or unaccomplishments)

    Hmmm... I'm at a loss of words on how to explain this.
    I think I understand: when you have nothing to accomplish, you start thinking about the fact that you have nothing to accomplish, and then you feel, as you said, disappointed and depressed (maybe, as I said earlier, inadequate). Is that right, or am I misreading it?

    Also, are you sure it's actually boredom? There was a thread a while ago about SJs and boredom, and the general consensus was that SJs don't generally get bored, because they're very good at finding something to do no matter what the situation. So maybe, for you, that go-to thing is pondering past accomplishments and failures? (This happens to me sometimes, too; methinks it's the Si hard at work.) So, is it really boredom, or is it just... having nothing to do? (If you see the distinction - not sure if I'm being very clear. Stream of consciousness E-ness, anyone? )
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    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
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  8. #58
    Perfect Gentleman! =D d@v3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I think I understand: when you have nothing to accomplish, you start thinking about the fact that you have nothing to accomplish, and then you feel, as you said, disappointed and depressed (maybe, as I said earlier, inadequate). Is that right, or am I misreading it?

    Also, are you sure it's actually boredom? There was a thread a while ago about SJs and boredom, and the general consensus was that SJs don't generally get bored, because they're very good at finding something to do no matter what the situation. So maybe, for you, that go-to thing is pondering past accomplishments and failures? (This happens to me sometimes, too; methinks it's the Si hard at work.) So, is it really boredom, or is it just... having nothing to do? (If you see the distinction - not sure if I'm being very clear. Stream of consciousness E-ness, anyone? )

    Your right about what I mean. Your also right in the fact that I don't think boredom is the proper word. Maybe you could re-word that for myself and the other SJ's?
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  9. #59
    Senior Member me_plus_one's Avatar
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    I have a feeling of simple entering on a very unstable land and were I don't belong at all and I didn't even read the other replies, but what I think is that for SJs obligations are not really obligations. They want to accomplish a something that for me might just be an obligation, but not for them.

    Well, tell me if you have understood something from my post.

  10. #60
    Senior Member Warm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Just curious... something going on in my life at the moment that's making me wonder if SJ life is like living under constant feelings of obligation to one thing after another... and whether these obligations are resented by the SJ or not, and whether there's any way for an SJ to understand a person not feeling obligated by the same things without concluding that that person is therefore a bad person?

    Obligations like... oh, anything. But things that are not actually legal obligations, I mean, things you do, in a real sense, have the choice as to whether or not you fulfill them as opposed to things that you'd be arrested for not fulfilling like paying taxes and stuff.

    So, things like spending time talking to a guy who's bought you a drink; going to visit a family member who's in your neighbourhood even though you're not close to them and it's quite an effort for you to get there, because you've been invited; bringing a bottle to a BYOB party (like I know this ISFJ woman who got sidetracked by an emergency on the way to a party and didn't get time to buy a bottle before the store closed, so she wanted to go home but I refused (and was driving lol) so we went but she felt guilty for days afterwards whilst I had no intention of taking a bottle cos I wasn't gonna be drinking anyway since I was driving - she's a teetotaller anyway "but it says BYOB on the invitation!! "); donating money to somebody who rattles a charity collection box under your nose; going to a wedding you've been invited to even though you won't know anyone else there; going to a birthday party of a person you don't like much because they've invited you and they give you a ride into work occasionally... and any other things you can think of.

    I guess this is more aimed at SFJ's than the T's, but I'd be interested in the STJ's point of view too and really anyone else's!
    As a child I was EXACTLY what was expected of me right down to mimicking my mother because everyone said that I was a "little her". During my junior year of high school when I started reading about nonconformity, I went through a mini-rebellious stage in which I actually stated my own opinions and formed others that were nowhere near what my father and stepmother thought. I even went so far as to challenge them on the validity of the Bible.
    Of course, now I subscribe to the Ayn Rand stream of thought on nonconformity, that nonconformists are those who look at what "the norm" is and go against it but that it is those who carve out their own paths based on their own logic/feelings/whatever who are the real individualists. Yes, an ISFJ/ISTJ said that.

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