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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Condor, do you see relaxing and having fun as serving a purpose? I mean, I know an ISTJ who finds it very difficult to let go, and never seems to really enjoy himself as much as other people. It feels to me like he sees 'having fun' as another task, one that has prescribed rules and ways to do it properly and even when he's 'having fun' he's still worried about whether he's doing it Properly and sorta defeating the point!

    It's funny cos in a way, yeah everything has a purpose, because even 'pointless' things like lying on your belly and making cat noises until you feel so silly you laugh your head off can be very useful in the scheme of psychology, since we know from many studies that've been done, how vital laughter and relaxation are to human psychological well-being.
    substitute, (btw, nice to meet you) before I answer let me explain that I don't equate relaxing and having fun as the same - I have fun doing the everyday things in life. They are fun because I am able (and willing to) complete them. Perhaps fun and satisfaction mean the same for me - it's quite possible.

    Relaxation, on the other hand, is just that. I'll sit in the yard watching the sun move from here to there or in my study listening to music. My purpose is to recharge, so to say.

    So, yes, I do consider them tasks - things to do. As to "letting go", that's something I never really understood. For the life of me, I can't think of what I would want (or ever wanted to) to let go of.

  2. #32
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    You make me think of the episode of DS9 where Odo goes into the holosuite and gets lessons from Vic Fontaine on loosening up before he finally scores with Kira.

    YouTube - ds9 his way part 1 620

    ...or the one where Worf, Jadzia, Bashir and Leta go to Risa and Worf gets disgusted by all the decadence and stuff and joins an extreme 'call to duty' type group. Can't remember the title of the episode though to give a link lol
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  3. #33
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    I did watch the clip (thanks for the link) - it seems the only way for him to "score with Kira" as you put it was to become something he inherently wasn't. Extrapolating the movie clip to real life would most likely result in - at the least - an unhealthy relationship when perceived happiness is formed around one of the partners being something he is not.

    I would think one would have an obligation to be honest about who and what they are (and feel). Just my two cents...

  4. #34
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    Wow, I must be more in touch with my SJ side than I thought. Must have been my partial asian upbringing as the eldest child or something like that. I do feel strongly about my obligations; but I also feel quite strongly about my need to drop things once in a while and leave duty for another day. Wow, it's almost like Ecclesiastes 3 when I really think about it.
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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Condor View Post
    I did watch the clip (thanks for the link) - it seems the only way for him to "score with Kira" as you put it was to become something he inherently wasn't. Extrapolating the movie clip to real life would most likely result in - at the least - an unhealthy relationship when perceived happiness is formed around one of the partners being something he is not.

    I would think one would have an obligation to be honest about who and what they are (and feel). Just my two cents...
    I can see why you'd see it that way, though I also agree with you about the importance of being true to yourself, I don't see this as excluding the possibility of adapting to new circumstances.

    It's possible to evolve, for a person to grow and lose some of their fears, it can mean being happier, it doesn't have to mean you're no longer the same person or being something you're not. I'm very different now than I was 15 years ago, but I'm still the same person, I'm not pretending to be who I am now and I wasn't pretending back then. Quite simply, I've learned some things that have caused me to grow up: I've changed. But I'm still me.

    If you watch the rest of the episode and susbequent ones you'll see that he stays true to himself and is still the same old Odo, he's just a lot happier
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  6. #36
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    I agree that it is possible - even probable - that we evolve as we age; our store of experiences is more to draw upon. Again, speaking only for myself I don't necessairly fear making decisions based on emotions, or displaying emotions, or anything emotional in general. I have no problem displaying emotions, they are - as I mentioned earlier - responses to feelings (or, manifestations of feelings, if you will). Feelings change, and emotions change as well. I simply don't see the prudence in making a decision (or obligation) based on criteria (emotions) that will change. If the criteria changes, then the decision may well become unsound.

    With respect to the movie character, the fact that he "goes back to being the same old Odo" would - IMO - substantiate the fact that he changed for a specific purpose and then "goes back..." I just don't see that as being honest to yourself.

    I understand (and am happy with the fact) that I don't change easily - if at all. People at work can't understand how I, in over 30 years in the work force, am only on my second job (and the reason I'm not still in my first job is because I retired from it). Most of them average about two or three jobs every five years. They accept change much more easily. I honestly believe, however, that is how I "show emotion". I feel good about fulfilling my obligations, so I continue to do so.

    I seem to get the sense from the title of the thread that "feeling obligated" is perceived by some (not necessairly the thread starter) as a bad thing. I just don't see it that way. It doesn't mean that I'm right or wrong, I'm just me.

  7. #37
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    Hm well, I can't really disagree with most of what you say there. It's interesting actually how much I do agree, considering our types are almost total opposites.

    I don't necessarily see feeling obligated as a bad thing, some things ARE obligatory and I think it's good and right that people should do their duty and fulfill their obligations. I was just wondering because it seems that some things are only subjectively obligatory, in that where one person says they are, another says they're not, so who's to decide who's right and wrong? Where it's a question of that sort of thing, I was wondering what the decision process is, in choosing what you feel obligated by and what you don't, as an SJ in particular, where it isn't something that's strictly or explicitly laid out in some law, tradition or policy or other external enforcing agent.

    I share your apprehension of the idea of decision making based on emotions, but I have learned there's a distinction between Feeling and emotions and that someone can feel a certain way about something long-term, whilst emotions about it can fluctuate all over the place. In myself I can't really tell whether that Feeling is actually just the product of my logical reasoning forcing me to believe X is 'right' and to stick with it even when my emotions tell me I'm hating it and want out. Sometimes though I do think that I'm going with Feeling, though it's very rare that I can recognize myself as doing so, occasionally I think something triggers some value that's Feeling based in me and not necessarily a matter of purely logical principle. It's quite mysterious, I admit... to me anyway, so that's why I was particularly wondering how the SFJ might see that, being more value/Feeling driven.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  8. #38
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    With regard to your query about "subjectively obligatory things" - whenever there is no standard (law, tradition, policy or external enforcing agent) I rely on my internal standards. I couldn't care less about what others feel I should do (e.g. I actually read the documents before I sign here or initial there - the fact the person on the other side of the table can't understand why I simply don't just believe them and sign where I'm told to is of no consequence to me).

    So to answer your question about what I feel obligated by - the answer is myself.

    I do hope more answer this question you raised. I am probably an extreme case and perhaps others can enlighten you with other viewpoints.
    Last edited by Condor; 09-01-2008 at 10:21 PM. Reason: grammatical correction

  9. #39
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Condor View Post
    With regard to your query about "subjectively obligatory things" - whenever there is no standard (law, tradition, policy or external enforcing agent) I rely on my internal standards. I couldn't care less about what others feel I should do (e.g. I actually read the documents before I sign here or initial there - the fact the person on the other side of the table can't understand why I simply don't just believe them and sign where I'm told to is of no consequence to me).

    So to answer your question about what I feel obligated by - the answer is myself.

    I do hope more answer this question you raised. I am probably an extreme case and perhaps others can enlighten you with other viewpoints.
    I agree with you on a lot of things (duh, we're almost the same type), but I'll try to do what you said - show another viewpoint. I think a topic like this needs ranting folks like you and me, Condor, and I mean that in a good way

    I also feel obligated by myself. I was very struck by that statement... you put it very well. It's like that scene in "The Bourne Supremacy", when they discover that he's giving himself the orders. I think SJs (or at least STJs) do that in their everyday lives, minus the killing and the espionage

    But to answer the basic question, yes, I do feel a sense of obligation in almost everything I do. For example - doing my best. If I don't do my best at everything, I feel like I've failed something, even if it isn't a competition. I don't resent it, because it's who I am.

    Also, your example at the very beginning of feeling obligated to give money to an obnoxious Salvation Army-type charity person... it doesn't really work like that for me. We do feel obligated to give back to the community in some way, but not so spontaneously like that. We don't resent that sense of obligation, because functioning like that is the only way we can be fulfilled. Without completing our necessary tasks, checking off the things on our internal lists, we feel empty.

    One example of this, for me, is weekends. On weekends, I sometimes sleep late, and relax in the traditional sense - reading, etc. But whenever I do this, at the end of the day, I feel... unhappy. I achieved nothing. I DID nothing. For me, living like that makes the days blur together, and that mild satisfaction from the first day eventually stops carrying over from day to day. I'm certain that if I was forced to live like that my whole life (in what most would consider the lap of luxury), I would have no reason to live. (LOL, that's why I'm never going to retire!)

    Of course, that doesn't mean we don't have fun. I'm guessing that anyone reading Condor's and my ideas is thinking that we're like robots with no feeling and no joy. But his comment about satisfaction and fun possibly meaning the same thing really resonates with me - at least, from day to day. I love parties. I love socializing. But I don't NEED that. I'd be happy never going to a party, because I'd still see and socialize with my friends at work or around town, and I feel like it's an event whenever I do. Maybe we just appreciate the everyday more than most? I dunno.

    And I HAVE to bring up that basic SJ idea: WE ENJOY GETTING THINGS DONE. It's nice. Relaxing, for me, could be cleaning. (We may be the only types that actually like jobs like doing data entry ) Watching TV is always nice, too and I tend to do productive things (i.e. knitting) while I watch TV. This might be internal obligation, but for the most part it's just because it's fun. But of course, I'm not as hardcore as Condor (hardcore Condor! it rhymes!)...

    I'm sorry. I ranted a lot there (kind of off topic). Here's my thesis statement: Obligation, for SJs, is not a bad thing. It's not something we resent. It's just a way of life - simple as that.
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  10. #40
    No me digas, che! Recoleta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I also feel obligated by myself. But to answer the basic question, yes, I do feel a sense of obligation in almost everything I do. For example - doing my best. If I don't do my best at everything, I feel like I've failed something, even if it isn't a competition. I don't resent it, because it's who I am.

    One example of this, for me, is weekends. On weekends, I sometimes sleep late, and relax in the traditional sense - reading, etc. But whenever I do this, at the end of the day, I feel... unhappy. I achieved nothing. I DID nothing. For me, living like that makes the days blur together, and that mild satisfaction from the first day eventually stops carrying over from day to day. I'm certain that if I was forced to live like that my whole life (in what most would consider the lap of luxury), I would have no reason to live. (LOL, that's why I'm never going to retire!)

    And I HAVE to bring up that basic SJ idea: WE ENJOY GETTING THINGS DONE. It's nice. Relaxing, for me, could be cleaning. (We may be the only types that actually like jobs like doing data entry ) Watching TV is always nice, too and I tend to do productive things (i.e. knitting) while I watch TV. This might be internal obligation, but for the most part it's just because it's fun. But of course, I'm not as hardcore as Condor (hardcore Condor! it rhymes!)...

    I'm sorry. I ranted a lot there (kind of off topic). Here's my thesis statement: Obligation, for SJs, is not a bad thing. It's not something we resent. It's just a way of life - simple as that.
    Good post. The parts that I quoted resonate with me as well. I think you and Condor are right...I do have an obligation to myself to do my best. I really don't compete with other people...I compete with myself. I know when I have done my best, and when I have slacked. I love seeing the fruits of my labor pay off, and I hate the feeling of "I could have done better." I'm likely my own worst critic, and that is fine with me. I like the challenge.

    I wonder if SJ's are very self-aware people? I know I constantly reflect on what I did/said and try to think of ways I could potentially improve or make my actions or words more efficient or concise. I would say that I am very aware of my limits and capabilities, which allows me to set reasonable goals for myself. Sometimes I'll stretch myself to see how far I can go, but that usually ends in exhaustion -- and the outcome could either be a success or a failure.

    Anyway, going back to your OP, Subs, perhaps I see family as something valuable, and therefore worth going out of my way to cultivate. Now, do I like visiting distant relatives or cutting in to my personal time? No. Simply put, I do not. But I make that sacrifice (i.e. live under that obligation) because I figure "You never know when you may need them, and it always helps to have connections." Sometimes my family is really a means to resources. I know that if I ever go back to Argentina I can stay with my cousin, or if I visit New York/Miami/Kentucky I've got plenty of family to accomodate me. If I want some crazy/sage and witty advice, there's grandma -- and if I ever felt the need to dabble in the stock market or pharmaceuticals I have my uncles. No, it's not always about what "I want," but as much as you'd love to hate your family at times, there is value to having them around. Don't think of visiting relatives as being in a room with someone who can't even tolerate you; instead, try to find some common ground. You're inevitably not going to like many things in life, but sometimes you just have to suck it up and deal with it. Burning bridges doesn't get you too many places, so for me it just seems easier to put a small amount of effort into maintaining those bridges.

    *Also, please note that I'm not talking about obscure distant relatives like people who aren't any more related to you than a perfect stranger off the street. When I refer to family I mean grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc.

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