User Tag List

First 1234 Last

Results 11 to 20 of 60

  1. #11
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    4,601

    Default

    I relate very strongly to what you say Squirrel, it's pretty close to how I feel, too, except that I don't feel any sorrow like you describe through being reminded of my failure to improve my relationships with them, because I don't feel any obligation in the first place or duty to even have a relationship with them.

    If we're talking siblings, parents, maybe even grandparents then yeah. But extended family no, like I say I don't see them as any different to anyone else that I'm not related to at all - if I click with someone, then I'll pursue a friendship with them. If not, then I won't. I don't see why it suddenly becomes a duty to flog a dead horse and fake all this chumminess just because a person happens to share some genetic material. I don't see there being anything wrong with not clicking with anyone else, so why would I blame a person, family member or not, for not clicking with me?

    Friendship's something that either happens or doesn't, you can't force it and I think it's wrong to make someone feel like they have to try and force it or face being called mean, cold, antisocial, whatever. Y'know like if you don't get on with one of your work colleagues you're not obliged to keep going out with them until you're bosom pals (which will never happen)... I guess it's possibly a question of detachment, which, if that's a person's default position (as it is with the NT) then it's kinda like you're guilt tripping someone for not being attached, like as if they can just attach, just like that, because you tell them they "should".

    Hmm - it's funny though... I guess I'm seeing that the things that I see as obligatory and where the sense of it being so comes from, my response to that etc, are quite different from the SFJ, which isn't surprising really!!

    I guess there's a difference then between fulfilling obligations through a sense of honour or a sense of duty... if there's a slight shade of difference in meaning between the two, the former being that say I'd never break a promise I made to anyone through a sense of honour, as in, I would think poorly of myself if I broke a promise so I do it for my own self-respect. Whilst I know my sister would, if it became difficult to keep the promise, be content to apologize to the person she made the promise to and feel that, so long as they accept her reason and her apology, her self-respect is still intact...?
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  2. #12
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    MBTI
    iSFj
    Enneagram
    2 sx/so
    Posts
    9,666

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    I guess there's a difference then between fulfilling obligations through a sense of honour or a sense of duty... if there's a slight shade of difference in meaning between the two, the former being that say I'd never break a promise I made to anyone through a sense of honour, as in, I would think poorly of myself if I broke a promise so I do it for my own self-respect. Whilst I know my sister would, if it became difficult to keep the promise, be content to apologize to the person she made the promise to and feel that, so long as they accept her reason and her apology, her self-respect is still intact...?
    I am the same as you. I would not break a promise I made to someone out of respect for them and for my own self-respect. I am bothered by people who do what your say you sister does. I know someone like that, and she constantly breaks her promises, but thinks that as long as she is able to apologize and give an explanation centered around her own feelings (oddly enough she's an ENTJ) that she should be completely freed of blame of any negative consequences that have occurred because of her broken promise.

    But now it seems like I've gone off topic of your original post. To get back to it, I enjoy doing things for people. There are times and people who I don't feel like doing things for and they may still act like they expect me to do things for them. The weird thing is that somehow I still feel obligated to do things for them and I don't know why.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Fuent's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    153

    Default

    Preach substitute. Keep it coming.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    INTP... I think not.

  4. #14
    Senior Member SquirrelTao's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    MBTI
    INXX
    Posts
    198

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hmm View Post
    To get back to it, I enjoy doing things for people. There are times and people who I don't feel like doing things for and they may still act like they expect me to do things for them. The weird thing is that somehow I still feel obligated to do things for them and I don't know why.
    My mother is an ISFJ, and she is the same way, I think. She is the classic example of a person who tries to be everything to everybody and who can't say no. Unfortunately she has given and given and given until she has become severely depleted. She has finally learned to take care of herself rather than putting herself last and everybody else first. But now she's starting to feel better again, and I fear she may overdo it again.

  5. #15
    Senior Member oasispaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    MBTI
    isfj
    Posts
    265

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    So, things like spending time talking to a guy who's bought you a drink; going to visit a family member who's in your neighbourhood even though you're not close to them and it's quite an effort for you to get there, because you've been invited; bringing a bottle to a BYOB party (like I know this ISFJ woman who got sidetracked by an emergency on the way to a party and didn't get time to buy a bottle before the store closed, so she wanted to go home but I refused (and was driving lol) so we went but she felt guilty for days afterwards whilst I had no intention of taking a bottle cos I wasn't gonna be drinking anyway since I was driving - she's a teetotaller anyway "but it says BYOB on the invitation!! "); donating money to somebody who rattles a charity collection box under your nose; going to a wedding you've been invited to even though you won't know anyone else there; going to a birthday party of a person you don't like much because they've invited you and they give you a ride into work occasionally... and any other things you can think of.
    i can't say that any of your examples would bother me if i didn't do them. i feel obligation to those close to me, not random people. like, my parents were in town a little while ago and i felt torn between devoting all my spare time to them or my boyfriend and my parents won because i don't get to see them very often. i did have this minor nagging feeling that i should invite my boyfriend along for everything, but knowing that he likes time to himself, not inviting him or him not wanting to join us was no big deal.

    example: one of the vp's of my company planned a potluck for tomorrow, just today, and i felt like maybe i should bring something, but a) i think all courses are taken care of, b) i'm the lowest on the totem pole at work therefore the lowest paid- i'm not wasting money on a dumb potluck. conclusion: any feeling of obligation was quickly resolved.
    just throw it against the wall and see what sticks.

  6. #16
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    4,601

    Default

    yeah you see oasispaw, that's the obligated feeling I'm talking about that I can't relate to. I don't honestly consider anyone as having any right or claim over my time except my own kids - and when they're grown up and are no longer dependent on me so much then even that will diminish.

    The ONLY reason I ever spend time with ANYONE, EVER, is because I want to, for my own reasons. Never because of any feeling that I "should". If my parents were in town, no matter how long ago I last saw them, if I didn't honestly want to see them, if I wasn't close to them and had other plans or other things I'd rather do, I wouldn't hesitate to just carry on. I wouldn't feel even slightly obligated to them.

    For me the idea that anyone is spending time with me out of feelings of obligation rather than purely because they want to, the idea that anyone feels obligated to give me their time, as though I had some claim over them - well, it's horrendous!!
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  7. #17
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    9w8
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    4,463

    Default

    How to get accepted despite not responding to expectations like you should?

    I've so far only found that I can't but I can bring the other parties attention to when I exceed mandate and leave them to either see the balance or boil their heads. It's not exactly my job to ensure that people are happy with my choices only to try to ensure that my passing through doesn't capsize all those in my wake.

    As for whether I feel it or not, of course I do. I feel it because there are people I care about who DO see these things as expected and by not doing them I do let them down. It actually prays on my mind from time to time (brain kicks in a feels worse about not having told a certain friend that he's not going to be there for her thirtieth.. ...yet). However there's also a certain amount fo "screw you hippy" as I require time unmolested by such things and yet they feel no compunction about inflicting it upon me.

    Fair's fair in my book.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  8. #18
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    MBTI
    iSFj
    Enneagram
    2 sx/so
    Posts
    9,666

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    For me the idea that anyone is spending time with me out of feelings of obligation rather than purely because they want to, the idea that anyone feels obligated to give me their time, as though I had some claim over them - well, it's horrendous!!
    Maybe it makes them happy to please you.

  9. #19
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    4,601

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hmm View Post
    Maybe it makes them happy to please you.
    I've thought of that. But it's important for me that people know my friendship is not dependent on those things though, that if they sense obligation then it comes from themselves and not from anything I'm expecting or requiring.

    I guess I just can't understand a mindset that would actually think they can 'command' affection, which is all I think a choice to spend free time with someone should be based on, genuine affection. Like just because they manage to, one way or another, get a person to spend their time with them, that this equals that person actually loving them. It doesn't. It could just mean they dread and want to avoid the grief they'd get if they didn't, but would rather not. The idea of a person seeing me that way is mortifying. That's why it's so important to me not to interfere with a person's freewill.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  10. #20
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    MBTI
    iSFj
    Enneagram
    2 sx/so
    Posts
    9,666

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    I've thought of that. But it's important for me that people know my friendship is not dependent on those things though, that if they sense obligation then it comes from themselves and not from anything I'm expecting or requiring.
    No, honey. It's not like that. I seriously doubt they think your friendship is dependent on any sense of obligation. I think you are taking a pessimistic view in removing all sense of sincerity or enjoyment from them when in reality it's probably the opposite of a bother. Just because they find enjoyment in pleasing you does not mean that it is not genuine. And whether or not it was your idea or theirs, it doesn't matter. It has the same result.

    I guess I just can't understand a mindset that would actually think they can 'command' affection, which is all I think a choice to spend free time with someone should be based on, genuine affection.
    Who do you think is doing that? Tell me who "they" is referring to.

Similar Threads

  1. [INTJ] INTJ's Introverted Feeling - Child (Puer/Puella)
    By Zhash in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 40
    Last Post: 01-04-2010, 09:06 AM
  2. [NF] Do you care how others feel?
    By Alienclock in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 141
    Last Post: 09-03-2008, 11:22 PM
  3. North American Union: How Would You Feel/Think About It?
    By heart in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 72
    Last Post: 08-24-2007, 04:46 PM
  4. Feel free...
    By The Ü™ in forum The Fluff Zone
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 08-17-2007, 07:12 PM
  5. Thinking/Feeling game: Same Difference
    By rivercrow in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 26
    Last Post: 05-14-2007, 08:17 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO