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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by animenagai View Post
    i think this is the key point of the whole thread. i think a lot of people here, especially F's think that they know how to read people very well. ISTJ's may find the notion of identifying feelings of others, of themselves, alien. therefore, the logical thing for them to do is to not put it into the picture. the way to let an ISTJ talk about emotions could therefore be explaining to them how emotions are a logical variable at least, therefore they can address them with more confidnece.
    I agree it's probably the point of the thread, but please allow me to expand my point - I have no need to understand how someone will internalize. By definition, the process is unique to each individual.

    I understand the difference between feelings and emotions. (For me) emotions are the responses to feelings. I can feel contentment and still not let an emotion be the basis for any action I may or may not take. Emotions simply have no value other than the expression of a feeling. Let it come, pass, and then move on with what's important.

  2. #32
    Senior Member mlittrell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dnivera View Post
    Depends on how important the decision is to the ISTJ.

    A good way to show an ISTJ that it's OK to make decisions based on feelings is by showing them that over-thinking decisions, without listening to your gut, can have negative consequences. For example, an ISTJ pre-med was flunking all of his classes and compromising his health but still wouldn't change majors so he wouldn't disappoint his parents' expectations of becoming a doctor. He pursued this goal even though everything else suffered.
    Good call. Intelligent answer. Nice to see some ISTJ's round here.

  3. #33
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    I am engaged to an ISTJ and my best friend is ISTP. Dangerous territory, since I'm an INFP; luckily, though, I have some out of type traits with my F (tough rather than tender, questioning rather than accepting), so I can manage a masquerade as a T.

    Anyways, in my experience, folks with S and T either account for people's feelings too much or hardly at all. For example, my ISTP friend used to constantly concern himself with the feelings of others, even in situations in which he should have only looked after number one! In the end, I would enter the situation, kick some ass, help him out, and he'd learn by example. Still kind of wimpy about stuff, but I've toughened him up some.

    My ISTJ fiancee' seems to sacrifice herself for other people because of things like "Well, we used to be friends," and so on. Seems to me that her sense of duty is how she navigates, and sometimes it causes her to damn what it costs her personally. Very strange to me; I admire the whole duty-oriented style and I appreciate her values, but it's hard for me to imagine the past as being a powerful impetus for the future. Sometimes it is, but I generally don't look backward as much as she does. She also has this affinity for doing mundane things like buying cookware and making dinner that she's romanticized; the other day, she was sighing almost dreamily about carrying out errands and such with me!

    In general, I find that T types care too much or too little about the feelings of themselves and those around them. ISTJs in particular seem to either care too much because of a sense of traditionalist duty or care too little from a sense of organizational responsibility.

  4. #34
    Senior Member Bella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2XtremeENFP View Post
    I don't know if this quality goes across all ISTJs or with just the one that I know...but...

    if an ISTJ ever decides on something by their "feelings" instead of "thinking", do they feel like they have no self control? If so, why is that?
    I think it's the lack of planning that makes us dislike making decisions based on feeling. Planning and thinking ahead etc when making a decision makes you feel in control. So, yes, it is probabaly a case of control vs spantaniety.

    Heaven forbid, spontaneity......
    yesiknowimamiserablegrouchnowgoawayovmeleor

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  5. #35
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    This thread is full of great responses for non-ISTJs to pore over.

    At first, this quote didn't catch my eye, but when I did read it through, I was in very strong agreement:
    Quote Originally Posted by PinkIceTD View Post
    ...not expressed in a way that satisfies other people. I think they're okay with their emotions, but conflict comes when they try to please other people with their expression of them. IMO anyway...
    Which is something that probably a lot of T's can identify with, anyway, feeling frustrated when other people basically "require" us to outwardly express our emotions.

    And the post near the beginning of this thread also made a good point, that in place of using Feeling itself to make a decision, we analyze the emotional landscape with Thinking to make it. At least, that sounds about right.
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  6. #36
    Senior Member 2XtremeENFP's Avatar
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    i think it's the lack of planning that makes us dislike making decisions based on feeling. Planning and thinking ahead etc when making a decision makes you feel in control. So, yes, it is probabaly a case of control vs spantaniety.
    This statement actually seems to make sense thanks!


    what I really really want to know is when there is a conflict of interest between the heart (for lack of a better word) and the brain... why does the brain ALWAYS win?
    With me, sure, when I feel there's a moral conflict, my brain will outway what my heart (feelings.. whatever) wants to do mainly because a person's brain knows right and wrong when the heart is blind to it...

    However.. when there is no clear right or wrong answer... why can't the heart ever overrule the brain with ISTJs?

  7. #37
    Senior Member Bella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2XtremeENFP View Post
    I don't know if this quality goes across all ISTJs or with just the one that I know...but...

    if an ISTJ ever decides on something by their "feelings" instead of "thinking", do they feel like they have no self control? If so, why is that?
    After an unpleasent little encounter I have this contribution to make. Not giving the example though, only the conclusion.

    With regards to human interaction I will let thinking override feeling purely to avoid being vulnarable or possibly making a fool of myself. Potentially expressed emotions(that heaven forbid! could possibly bring softness to the situation) gets suppressed by very strong thinking/rationalization of why it would be stupid to express these emotions.
    yesiknowimamiserablegrouchnowgoawayovmeleor

    It's Mizzz ST, thank you...

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2XtremeENFP View Post
    This statement actually seems to make sense thanks!


    what I really really want to know is when there is a conflict of interest between the heart (for lack of a better word) and the brain... why does the brain ALWAYS win?
    With me, sure, when I feel there's a moral conflict, my brain will outway what my heart (feelings.. whatever) wants to do mainly because a person's brain knows right and wrong when the heart is blind to it...

    However.. when there is no clear right or wrong answer... why can't the heart ever overrule the brain with ISTJs?
    Perhaps I can offer what dances around the vacuum between my ears for consideration -

    When making a decision regarding "heart vs. brain" the choice (from my personally warped perspective) is not "heart vs. brain", but "brain vs. brain." I think through the act of an emotional response versus a purely cognitive response. I think it comes down to a question of priorities: if the emotional response is the priority, then I employ it. So I guess the heart occasionally wins out, but only if it is associated with what I have defined as what is important.
    ...doesn't work or play well with others...

  9. #39
    Senior Member Bella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2XtremeENFP View Post
    This statement actually seems to make sense thanks!


    what I really really want to know is when there is a conflict of interest between the heart (for lack of a better word) and the brain... why does the brain ALWAYS win?
    With me, sure, when I feel there's a moral conflict, my brain will outway what my heart (feelings.. whatever) wants to do mainly because a person's brain knows right and wrong when the heart is blind to it...

    However.. when there is no clear right or wrong answer... why can't the heart ever overrule the brain with ISTJs?
    Maybe we don't feel worthy of the indulgence of giving in to feelings. We can be stupidly hard on our selves, after all.
    yesiknowimamiserablegrouchnowgoawayovmeleor

    It's Mizzz ST, thank you...

  10. #40
    Junior Member silversun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bella View Post
    I think it's the lack of planning that makes us dislike making decisions based on feeling. Planning and thinking ahead etc when making a decision makes you feel in control. So, yes, it is probabaly a case of control vs spantaniety.

    Heaven forbid, spontaneity......
    I'm pretty sure my dad is an ISTJ. He rarely makes gut decisions. He always researches everything (vacation, electronics, restaurants) before deciding. He was so confused when I said I wanted a new computer.. he fought it SO hard. Just couldn't see why I needed it. He's sort of self-centered =/ My mom sometimes buys things in secret. Alas, one day on vacation in Florida we were trying to find a restaurant to eat at. We drove up the entire road, past all kinds of places. I saw a Boston Market and was like, "let's eat there!". Of course since dad is driving the car, we have to see ALL the possibilities (and get lost on side streets a few times) before ending up at, what do you know, Boston Market.

    Though actually I sometimes have a run-in with his feelings. When he's upset, he makes it very visible. He sits at the kitchen table with his head in his hands trying to send everyone on a guilt trip. Other times I start arguments about his faults and I think it really hurts his feelings, but what do I care, I'm an INTJ.

    He had the worst temper too, for a long time. It's not so bad now. I will always remember how he would turn purple in less than 10 seconds with his eyes bulging out of his head.. scariest thing I will ever see.

    He never spent time with me or my brother when we were children because he was too busy being "productive". He never has time to fix things anymore but he still insists that eventually he'll get around to it. Hire someone to fix it? Of course not! That's why the ceiling tiles in the basement still aren't all in.
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