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  1. #11
    Senior Member Sling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    • Subtle guilt trips through self-victimization
    • Actively being a paragon of virtue, to use as leverage later ("If I'm perfect, then you have no excuse to be upset with me.")
    • Generally passive-aggressive (occasionally downright aggressive if they feel justified or people they love are threatened)
    • Self-pity/withdrawal/self-castigation
    • Mentally able to block out things they don't want to address (denial and repression)
    • Can keep record of wrongs easily
    • Prone to wild speculation when things are forced outside the box (i.e., weak N abilities)


    Those are the things I generally have experienced.
    I agree with this.

    Sometimes it seems they are more like problem-relishers rather than problem-solvers, dwelling on every aspect of misery, inconvenience, and strife of the situation("We're all going to die..and it's your fault!!", rather than "How did this happen, and what can we do to fix it").

    It's very hard to make them happy when they are in this mood. I think arguments for them isn't so much about figuring out a problem or making a point as it is about them indirectly asking for some kind of emotional support(no idea what that would be, probably differs from person to person). This paragraph is purely speculative, and I might be wrong.

    If you deal with them calmly and logically address the problem like a T would, they won't accept they are wrong. Instead, they will go outside and try to undo the lugnuts on their tire with their teeth to keep themselves in a frustrated and determined despair while they contemplate their next campaign. Their ability to dodge reasoning like Neo dodges bullets, and to re-introduce even the most overinflated of insignificant events that happened years ago, allows them to have epic arguments. Much like a D&D game. As I said before, their arguing isn't always means to an end as it is with T's, but rather a request for emotional fulfillment of some sort.

    Thus arguing will get you nowhere with them. Attack the root of the flame, rather than the flames themselves. In fire theory, a fire needs 3 things to burn. Fuel, oxygen, and heat. So, consider fuel as an idea or object that they can obsess over. You can't really cut these off with reasoning, as they will fabricate more. Heat could represent the emotions that react with the fuel. That is where you need to address them. You could cut off their oxygen supply, but that could cause brain damage, and will cause the fire to explode into an even more violent inferno when the oxygen is reintroduced to the heat and fuel. Trust me here. My dad tried it. It only got him arrested, and then the argument continued over the police telephone.

    Unhealthy ISFJ=self defeating to the max.

    I think you can add general neurosis to the list as well.

    No need to thank me here. Just be appreciative of the misfortune of my having an intimate knowledge of unhealthy ISFJ's. :p

  2. #12
    now! in shell form INA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sling View Post
    I think arguments for them isn't so much about figuring out a problem or making a point as it is about them indirectly asking for some kind of emotional support(no idea what that would be, probably differs from person to person). This paragraph is purely speculative, and I might be wrong.

    If you deal with them calmly and logically address the problem like a T would, they won't accept they are wrong. Instead, they will go outside and try to undo the lugnuts on their tire with their teeth to keep themselves in a frustrated and determined despair while they contemplate their next campaign.
    Maybe they are most frustrated that you start with the proposition that they are wrong and will be brought over to see why they are wrong if you apply your trusty logic and calm. Then the problem isn't what irked them in the first place, but your cool, implacable assuredness that they are the one with the problem.
    hoarding time and space
    A single event can awaken within us a stranger totally unknown to us. To live is to be slowly born.
    — Antoine de Saint-Exupery

  3. #13
    Senior Member Sling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IF3157 View Post
    Maybe they are most frustrated that you start with the proposition that they are wrong and will be brought over to see why they are wrong if you apply your trusty logic and calm. Then the problem isn't what irked them in the first place, but your cool, implacable assuredness that they are the one with the problem.

    Nah, I don't think that is how they operate. I don't think mental input has any effect on them when they are in this state, rational or otherwise.

    In other words, what you are saying and what they want to hear might affect totally different mental circuits.

    If you use rationality, part of their brain will filter it out and discard it long before you decide to process it. If you throw back heated irrationality, it is like dumping some kernels into a bowl of already cooking popcorn.

  4. #14
    now! in shell form INA's Avatar
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    I can see what your ISFJ has to contend with
    hoarding time and space
    A single event can awaken within us a stranger totally unknown to us. To live is to be slowly born.
    — Antoine de Saint-Exupery

  5. #15
    Senior Member Sling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IF3157 View Post
    I can see what your ISFJ has to contend with
    Haha. Contention is the wrong concept. Rather than try to hit back, you have to deflect her arm with one hand, and inject her in her then exposed neck with the other. I mean metaphorically speaking...Or do I.

  6. #16
    now! in shell form INA's Avatar
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    ::
    hoarding time and space
    A single event can awaken within us a stranger totally unknown to us. To live is to be slowly born.
    — Antoine de Saint-Exupery

  7. #17
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    Sling's right about the self defeating nature and worthless arguing. Honestly? There's no use arguing when an ISFJ is at an unhealthy state because it not only will be fruitless, but it will also come off as attacking - especially if you appear "cold". As an NF, I'd feel the same way if someone came at me trying to solve my emotional problem with cold hard logic.

    I find figuring out the root of the problem and supporting them through it works best. A lot of what is emotionally spilling out at the time an ISFJ explodes is build up from not expressing the problem in the first place. I know my boyfriend will rant & rave about everything related or unrelated to the problem and be generally inconsolable. ISFJ's are fairly dependent beings and I have learned that letting them be dependent on you for support actually helps them build their own confidence and become more independently confident.

    The best solution I've found to the problem is to weed through the complaining to figure out the actual problem and then figure out a workable solution. For example, my boyfriend has a huge lack of self confidence. It affects EVERYTHING he does and when he's really down on himself or in a position where he needs to have confidence, he starts to turn into an unhealthy ISFJ. When he starts the unhealthy behavior, I don't even bother arguing and I don't let him blame me. Instead, I start helping him build his confidence. When he had a lot of job interviews, I would drive him and give him tons of verbal support. After the interview, I'd let him tell me all about it & let him know that he did a great job. I helped him get back into school so he could continue to do a career that he enjoyed & I am always there to help him study the subjects where he struggles. I let him know when I'm proud of him and I let him know his good qualities when he's beating himself up over the bad. It really does help deter the unhealthy behaviors and helps him to push forward & do more things independently.

  8. #18
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Sling, maybe you should try dating NT's to relieve yourself of this problem.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Fuent's Avatar
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    My mom is an ISFJ and let me tell you... She's such a nice lady but for some reason she annoys me sooooooooooooooooo much. Wants to know so many details. I feel like she's trying to trap me but she says that it's because she's just worried. Either way it's really annoying.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuent View Post
    My mom is an ISFJ and let me tell you... She's such a nice lady but for some reason she annoys me sooooooooooooooooo much. Wants to know so many details. I feel like she's trying to trap me but she says that it's because she's just worried. Either way it's really annoying.
    Heh, I'm in the same boat. Every time a new friend of mine meets my mom they always tell me "Your mom is so nice/awesome/cool/etc.". My typical response is one of heavily reluctant agreement and in the cases when the heavy reluctance doesn't go unnoticed I have to explain that while don't necessarily disagree with them, I have to put annoying at the top of my list of adjectives that describe her.

    She always has to finish her thoughts even when it's been made perfectly clear that she need not go on, when I'm having conversations with her she always spouts off the same redundant things over and over again, she doesn't seem to realize when conversations are over and so I'm stuck listening to a broken record until I leave the room (and she talks to herself so I might still hear her when she wanders by afterwards - her words are like the drops in that form of torture where the victim has drops of water falling on there head constantly until it drives them insane), she's constantly interrupting me when I'm alone and thinking (in my prime) and tells me that she might as well do it then because I never want to talk anyways (which is perfectly true when the subject involves how she wants me to get this stain out of my shirt or how she stumbled upon such a great deal on peanut butter, etc.), she'll knock but won't wait for a response and just barge in so she can finish her repetitive tasks without any concern for my privacy, she's always asking my opinion but completely ignores me when I answer her and immediately follows up my response with her own opinion....I could go on and on.

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