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Thread: STJs + FPs

  1. #61
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Absolutely. I didn't mean it in a literal sense - I was only describing how it 'feels'.


    I don't really see that way exactly. It feels like a decision not to internalise something negative (or not to internalise as much - if that makes sense), and to instead deal with it externally in a particular way that's hard to describe. I suppose I would say it's finding some external closure as a way of preventing me stressing over it. It's usually something that I don't need to internalise and fret over, so in that sense it is a healthier thing for me.

    Although, this may all be merely an illusionary impression I guess. Or it could be down to being a e4.
    I don't think it's illusory, no. But I do think I used to think of it more like this. But I've manhandled this realm, kind of abused getting to Te in the past. I've come to realize I guess that there's a cost? Sorry can't explain much better atm. Will reflect and come back with something more.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  2. #62
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    No, I don't think that's really what's happening. Te is still colored by the lenses of the preceding functions. The motivation for "being" Te will always be driven by Fi.
    For the sake of nitpicky clarification, I think that Te-doms are fueled by Fi as well. And that's why it scares us. I would clarify, but it would be hard to separate that from my Enneatype. Will think on it...
    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    @EJCC And it does not bother you that your ENFP friend breaks all the rules you hold so dear? I always end up feeling like I'm having my 'bad behaviour' excused while I don't deserve it when that happens
    I agree with Cim, for the most part, especially the bolded:
    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    Well, if your Fi was more "visible", I think that might be off-putting for some STJs. I guess I tend to admire Fi when it's used more indirectly, and you can see its effects through other means, like looking at a building and admiring the builder who you never saw or met or know anything about. It's still true that I don't handle well when people get "emotional", and I usually don't appreciate rule-breakers who just like to show how Rule-Breakerish they are, but if it has a solid principle behind it, I can (often slowly, sometimes quickly) support that, too. If I don't know you, I'll probably assume it's the former, but if we're friends, I trust your judgment to some extent and probably assume it's the latter. But that really varies based on situation.
    There's always a process at the beginning of my close friendships, where I try to work through the person's irrationalities (or at least, what I perceive to be irrationalities). I may try to correct them, which will sometimes work, but is usually met with either a stone wall of "I will consider no other options", in which case I save my energy for fights that I can win, or they make a case for why it's NOT an irrationality, in which case I change my mind and am reassured. In the case of my ENFP friend, it was a combination of all three of those. There are still things I don't approve of, that she does on a regular basis, but I have to recognize that it's just part of who she is and there's nothing I can do about it. To be honest, this process is likely just a more extreme version of what everyone goes through when they love someone, platonically or otherwise.
    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Interesting. So do you mean that you slowly become more aware of those underlying Fi drives within yourself and how much they undermine your intentions/goals/decisions etc? Is it something you try to conquer or more a process of release?
    I think I was always aware of those Fi drives, but I hated them -- saw them as weakness and irrationality, both in myself and in others. What happened was that I slowly became aware of the benefits of Fi. The reasons not to hate it. The MBTI played a huge role in this, in my case, since I discovered it when I was 17 and am now 23. Not sure how it would work for other STJs. Presumably there's usually some kind of wake-up call, or at least a moment that they may not have been receptive to when they were less mature, but that they are now ready to hear.
    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    But doesn't that feel like compromising yourself? Or is it just a relief to let go a little?
    Telling someone something that you're ashamed of, and having them tell you not to be ashamed, but instead to be proud, is a huge relief.
    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Also are you really able to choose to show your softer side? In other words, is it something you consciously withhold until the right time? I just find it interesting that you see it as an option, rather than a background aspect of yourself that you don't have much control over.
    The part I don't have much control over is the angry-Fi part. The part that lashes out when it's prodded at too much. Whereas my soft side is definitely something that I have control over!
    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I suppose I would say it's finding some external closure as a way of preventing me stressing over it. It's usually something that I don't need to internalise and fret over, so in that sense it is a healthier thing for me.


    "Stop moping about it and get it done" is the Te mantra!
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  3. #63
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I don't think it's illusory, no. But I do think I used to think of it more like this. But I've manhandled this realm, kind of abused getting to Te in the past. I've come to realize I guess that there's a cost? Sorry can't explain much better atm. Will reflect and come back with something more.
    Well, your inf-Te is probably more advanced than mine, so I'll take your word for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    There's always a process at the beginning of my close friendships, where I try to work through the person's irrationalities (or at least, what I perceive to be irrationalities). I may try to correct them, which will sometimes work, but is usually met with either a stone wall of "I will consider no other options", in which case I save my energy for fights that I can win, or they make a case for why it's NOT an irrationality, in which case I change my mind and am reassured. In the case of my ENFP friend, it was a combination of all three of those. There are still things I don't approve of, that she does on a regular basis, but I have to recognize that it's just part of who she is and there's nothing I can do about it. To be honest, this process is likely just a more extreme version of what everyone goes through when they love someone, platonically or otherwise.
    You gauge the irrationalities? I guess that makes sense. The STJs I know seem to have figured out what battles they can't win or which ones aren't worth winning, try to take some deep breaths and let it go.

    The funny thing is part of the Fi-Te development for me has been a process of letting go too. When I get overwhelmed by the insolvable problems of the world it's like Te is telling me, "Shit happens. Just do what you can and forget the rest". I think that's related to the whole internalisation avoidance aspect too: it tells me that not to make everything my problem, and to accept that bad stuff is gonna happen.

    I think I was always aware of those Fi drives, but I hated them -- saw them as weakness and irrationality, both in myself and in others. What happened was that I slowly became aware of the benefits of Fi. The reasons not to hate it. The MBTI played a huge role in this, in my case, since I discovered it when I was 17 and am now 23. Not sure how it would work for other STJs. Presumably there's usually some kind of wake-up call, or at least a moment that they may not have been receptive to when they were less mature, but that they are now ready to hear.
    I guess that Fi influence will only increase going by the timeline @calb posted. It's funny, some of the stuff my 27 year old ESTJ sister has said lately is so Fi it has my jaw on the floor. It's like seeing her eyes opening up to a larger perspective. There are downsides, though, because it seems to open her up to internalisation problems. It's not like she didn't have insecurities and uncertainties before but they seem to becoming more existential. Before when people were shitty to her she was upset about how disappointing others can be, ie. it was outwardly directed. Now it's more inwardly directed. She keeps asking herself if she's done something wrong to deserve this. It's not a massive problem though and she still manages to be on top of things. I would be in a far worse state if it were me.

    In many ways I have seen the two functions in broad terms as being: Fi=doubt/complexity and Te=certainty/clarity (or something the like). Both are important and both have their downsides. Personally, I think moving from a place of clarity toward doubt and complexity must be way scarier than the reverse, but maybe that's just the nature of my perspective.

    Telling someone something that you're ashamed of, and having them tell you not to be ashamed, but instead to be proud, is a huge relief.
    If only I knew it was that easy

    The part I don't have much control over is the angry-Fi part. The part that lashes out when it's prodded at too much. Whereas my soft side is definitely something that I have control over!
    See, I think the same of the Te part of me.



    "Stop moping about it and get it done" is the Te mantra!
    Absolutely.
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    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  4. #64
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    back when i liked my istj ex husband we were really great at being friends....not like the super feely friends but the sort of high energy fun friends...like we bounced off each other well. like around my other nfp friends or people ive had relationships we're all connected in that gooey center place...with him it was like pop rocks haha like i was very enfp because he was very not.

    i liked how uptight and planned he was and i liked being the opposite and just being amused by it.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  5. #65
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Reviving this thread after a conversation I had with @Udog about FPs "unlocking" TJs. (Hope he doesn't mind that I brought the convo here.)

    I had brought it up in some context and he mentioned that he really disliked the concept -- if I understood him correctly, he disliked it because it implied that 1) some people's feelings are more of a "prize" to unlock, than others, 2) FPs should be oh so proud of themselves for having the skill/innate talents to unlock them, and 3) FPs were condescending to TJs, somehow.

    I wholeheartedly agree with the first, and I had never noticed the second and third. My gut response to the third was that if that was condescension, then I wanted to be condescended to, in a way. Like others have mentioned in this thread, FPs want to unlock, and TJs want to be unlocked.

    Two tangential notes:

    - This makes me wonder about "unlocking" between types. I do think that TJs hide their romantic, soft side -- but it seems like most types bottle things up, for different reasons. Which in turn makes me wonder why TJs are stereotyped as having the most emotional "gems" hidden away, when, for example, I know from experience that FJs keep a lot bottled up. Is it all because of the juxtaposition between the outer facade and what's hidden away? Like, because TJs appear more stoic and level-headed, it's more surprising for people to find that we feel exactly the same things that others do?

    - Why is it that what FPs focus on unlocking, is more related to feeling? Or is it really? I know from other threads, and from my experience, that TJs also like to unlock FPs, but in a more general sense -- just that they seem complex, maybe more complex than they let on, and that they turn that unlocking process into something fun. It doesn't feel burdensome, it doesn't feel like you're finding a new emotional weight to put on your shoulders. It's just... nice.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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    want to ask me something? go for it!

  6. #66
    Sweet Ocean Cloud SD45T-2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Just realized that I could, in fact, summon people here. So:
    @captain curmudgeon @Habba (still around?) @SD45T-2 @Patches @The Iron Giant @d@v3 @Cimarron
    I don't think I have any FP close friends IRL. I've never had a romantic relationship with any.
    1w2-6w5-3w2 so/sp

    "I took one those personality tests. It came back negative." - Dan Mintz

  7. #67
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    Ha, interesting thread. I've never felt the aversion that every other type supposedly feels towards SJs. Am I attracted to them? Some, certainly. I've gotten along with an ISTJ or two, they were..normal. Can't say I've ever really sought them out though.

  8. #68
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    I usually get along swimmingly with ISTJs. If we have shared interests, then we have a lot to talk about. I can be sardonic & biting & they don't get offended, and vice versa. It's a lot of tongue-in-cheek mixing of self-deprecation & scorning others. It's hard to offend them, even though they're squishier than ESTJs. The ones I know are usually 6 in enneagram, perhaps an occasional 1. My grandpa was ISTJ 6w5 & one of my most favorite people ever .

    I've had ESTJ friends here & there throughout my life. One of my childhood best friends was ESTJ. People said we were alike - we both hated each other initially, but we also both hated most people initially. We were both really stubborn & opinionated children, but she more outgoing & upbeat & me shy & morose.

    I've been friends with a few ESTJ women here & there. Not close friends, but able to have conversations. Sometimes I'm internally cringing when they tell me stuff, cuz they come off as self-righteous or uptight, but they also seem to like my arty-farty-ness & intellectual nature, and I think I'm good for opening them up to new ideas. They generally tolerate that I'm hopelessly disorganized, perhaps with nudge here, which is fine as long as it's not condescending. I appreciate that they'll take care of details that I don't think about.

    I have to be careful when voicing opinions with them, because I find ESTJs very touchy, much more so than ISTJs. One of the funniest guys I know is an ESTJ, and humor-wise he's hard to offend, but he gets uppity about other stuff. I think it's downplayed how outgoing people-people ESTJs are; most I know seem very happy and energetic, not serious all the time. It is funny how they'll be so oblivious to interpersonal dynamics (even I'm not THAT oblivious), yet they'll seem to take real interest in people as individuals.

    I've also had several arch nemeses that aways seem to be ESTJ (male or female). They seem to think I'm rebellious &/or have a bad attitude. I tend to find these ones too uptight & nitpicky & cramping my style. I've come to terms with this ESTJ I do volunteer work with... I'd say we're friendlyish now, but he still acts like he's on eggshells with me sometimes. Most ESTJs I've known seem to be 1, 3 or 6....don't know any 8s thus far.

    So that's my general experience with them.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  9. #69
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Reviving this thread after a conversation I had with @Udog about FPs "unlocking" TJs. (Hope he doesn't mind that I brought the convo here.)

    I had brought it up in some context and he mentioned that he really disliked the concept -- if I understood him correctly, he disliked it because it implied that 1) some people's feelings are more of a "prize" to unlock, than others, 2) FPs should be oh so proud of themselves for having the skill/innate talents to unlock them, and 3) FPs were condescending to TJs, somehow.

    I wholeheartedly agree with the first, and I had never noticed the second and third. My gut response to the third was that if that was condescension, then I wanted to be condescended to, in a way. Like others have mentioned in this thread, FPs want to unlock, and TJs want to be unlocked.

    Two tangential notes:

    - This makes me wonder about "unlocking" between types. I do think that TJs hide their romantic, soft side -- but it seems like most types bottle things up, for different reasons. Which in turn makes me wonder why TJs are stereotyped as having the most emotional "gems" hidden away, when, for example, I know from experience that FJs keep a lot bottled up. Is it all because of the juxtaposition between the outer facade and what's hidden away? Like, because TJs appear more stoic and level-headed, it's more surprising for people to find that we feel exactly the same things that others do?

    - Why is it that what FPs focus on unlocking, is more related to feeling? Or is it really? I know from other threads, and from my experience, that TJs also like to unlock FPs, but in a more general sense -- just that they seem complex, maybe more complex than they let on, and that they turn that unlocking process into something fun. It doesn't feel burdensome, it doesn't feel like you're finding a new emotional weight to put on your shoulders. It's just... nice.
    The 'condescension', if it is there, is usually when an NFP is still mastering or discovering their own skill set - there is a need to practice, get better at it, and even brag about your achievements. It has usually very little to do with the other person and tends to vanish once they move passed that stage. It's what happens with most people when they learn something new and relish the feel of that. I'll admit to being occasionally guilty of enjoying it as a side feature - the game aspect of it, I mean. It's kind of like beating a video game, really - but it should need be at the expense of the other party involved. It's just a nice bonus.

    As for FJs, the same often happens with them and TPs. TPs tend to 'unlock' FJs due to acting the way that FJs wish they could. They're too busy being PC or maintaining the peace to give into their actual frustrations and grievances with the world and TPs show them that there is no reason to actually lock themselves away like that. Often you'll find that FJs admit to liking TPs coz they say and do what the FJ only wished they could. Similarly, TPs often get unlocked by FJs by learning that caring for others does not mean losing or compromising yourself, nor that it will automatically get that foolhardy vulnerability - as they consider it - exploited. They learn that gaming the system is a short-term plan, and a bad one at that and find they have a humanistic caring side - if only for their own benefit.

    TJs unlock us just as much, for that matter. I had a frightening epiphany about a year ago with an ESTJ. I came into her environment for a second time. The first time, I'd only worked with her briefly and it had been clear that she found me too....idealistic. I've always been labelled idealistic and not really...useful. Yet this second time, years later, when I entered her domain as such, she recruited me instantly. I was kind of...dumbfounded but appreciative as I felt sort of lost. She led a group of people that she worked tirelessly to protect and had just taken me under her wing. Instantly, she put me to work. To obtain certain resources, she told me point blank:

    'Listen, I know one place where we can get it, but the proprietor and I don't exactly see...eye to eye. Don't tell them you're affiliated with me. The guy who takes care of the place for the owner has a thing for a pretty face. You kind of have a charming aura about you and people like you, so why don't you undo your hair, and go talk to him to see what you can get out of him. I'll go scrounge up some leverage to use so we can make a trade.'

    My INTP friend was standing right next to me when she explained this without even blinking and I'm standing there stammering and not really believing what I'm hearing. Meanwhile, my INTP friend bursts out into laughter, almost literally rolling on the floor.

    Not half as convinced as the ESTJ, I walk up to the place as I undo my hair. I told the ESTJ not to get her hopes up as I had no idea what I was doing ( I SUCK at negotiation or bartering coz I generally care more about getting along with a person than obtaining what I'm to obtain). She told me that that was fine, but that she did know what she was doing and I should just get going.

    I go up there, strike up a conversation, laugh, talk, smile and genuinely have a good time. The guy tries to recruit me for his firm (he was looking for people to do...some dodgy shit for him), I evade, tease him a little and offer up a trade instead. At the end of the day, he traded me for double what I was sent out to get (with the stuff that the ESTJ dug up surprisingly fast), and gave me several freebees to booth - to the point where he actually got in trouble for it and asked me to put in writing what we'd agreed on so he could back his side of things up. The ESTJ point blank told me that I'd been a good investment and walked away with the goods to go do her thing

    I...was shocked. Here was a person who worked around all my insecurities and weaknesses and point blank told me my net worth. I'd never considered using just...being me as a concrete business opportunity before. I realised that she was using me to compliment her style of leadership; I'd effectively become a tool in her Te-box to connect to certain people she was having issues getting resources out of. I've never seen anyone use me in such a blatant ROI kind of way (though, thinking back, I had another ESTJ boss and an ISTP one that did the same thing - just...not in this obvious a way)

    She also made me realise that there are certain things that I can capitalise on; things I considered normal and natural and nothing special. Things that I've just not mined enough. It made me reconsider how I could leverage myself more, what talents I actually had (something I always struggled to recognise) and how I could use them without harming others and exploiting them necessarily, but also without wasting them completely.


    So it isn't just us that unlock you peeps, or for that matter, enjoy doing so
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





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  10. #70
    Sweet Ocean Cloud SD45T-2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    TJs unlock us just as much, for that matter. I had a frightening epiphany about a year ago with an ESTJ. I came into her environment for a second time. The first time, I'd only worked with her briefly and it had been clear that she found me too....idealistic. I've always been labelled idealistic and not really...useful. Yet this second time, years later, when I entered her domain as such, she recruited me instantly. I was kind of...dumbfounded but appreciative as I felt sort of lost. She led a group of people that she worked tirelessly to protect and had just taken me under her wing. Instantly, she put me to work. To obtain certain resources, she told me point blank:

    'Listen, I know one place where we can get it, but the proprietor and I don't exactly see...eye to eye. Don't tell them you're affiliated with me. The guy who takes care of the place for the owner has a thing for a pretty face. You kind of have a charming aura about you and people like you, so why don't you undo your hair, and go talk to him to see what you can get out of him. I'll go scrounge up some leverage to use so we can make a trade.'

    My INTP friend was standing right next to me when she explained this without even blinking and I'm standing there stammering and not really believing what I'm hearing. Meanwhile, my INTP friend bursts out into laughter, almost literally rolling on the floor.

    Not half as convinced as the ESTJ, I walk up to the place as I undo my hair. I told the ESTJ not to get her hopes up as I had no idea what I was doing ( I SUCK at negotiation or bartering coz I generally care more about getting along with a person than obtaining what I'm to obtain). She told me that that was fine, but that she did know what she was doing and I should just get going.

    I go up there, strike up a conversation, laugh, talk, smile and genuinely have a good time. The guy tries to recruit me for his firm (he was looking for people to do...some dodgy shit for him), I evade, tease him a little and offer up a trade instead. At the end of the day, he traded me for double what I was sent out to get (with the stuff that the ESTJ dug up surprisingly fast), and gave me several freebees to booth - to the point where he actually got in trouble for it and asked me to put in writing what we'd agreed on so he could back his side of things up. The ESTJ point blank told me that I'd been a good investment and walked away with the goods to go do her thing

    I...was shocked. Here was a person who worked around all my insecurities and weaknesses and point blank told me my net worth. I'd never considered using just...being me as a concrete business opportunity before. I realised that she was using me to compliment her style of leadership; I'd effectively become a tool in her Te-box to connect to certain people she was having issues getting resources out of. I've never seen anyone use me in such a blatant ROI kind of way (though, thinking back, I had another ESTJ boss and an ISTP one that did the same thing - just...not in this obvious a way)

    She also made me realise that there are certain things that I can capitalise on; things I considered normal and natural and nothing special. Things that I've just not mined enough. It made me reconsider how I could leverage myself more, what talents I actually had (something I always struggled to recognise) and how I could use them without harming others and exploiting them necessarily, but also without wasting them completely.


    So it isn't just us that unlock you peeps, or for that matter, enjoy doing so
    Sounds like a Mamet play.
    1w2-6w5-3w2 so/sp

    "I took one those personality tests. It came back negative." - Dan Mintz

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