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Thread: STJs + FPs

  1. #51
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by calb View Post
    I thought it might explain why the ESTJ would move into the Dominant and Auxiliary territory of the INFP. Because from the age of 20, they develop Tertiary Ne and then develop Inferior Fi from 35 onwards. The idea is, that they are well developed from the age of 50+ That neither the dominant, nor inferior matters any more, and they all have equal strength.
    I get that. I guess I'm more confused by the complexities of the "why" than the "what".
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  2. #52
    failed poetry slam career chubber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I get that. I guess I'm more confused by the complexities of the "why" than the "what".
    Maybe you will understand it when you are 35+

  3. #53
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    @senza tema
    I don't really have any deep insights on this one other than I like how straightforward and frank they are, no bullshit, we share a similar sense of humor, and they tolerate me and even enjoy me, although they admittedly find me strange
    me too. as much as I feel I'm being direct in my own mind, putting things in simple terms for people is something I've had to work on a lot. (it helps to write down bullet points). STJs are straight to the point. nothing extra, no bullshit, yes the facts and the necessary protocol.

    @calb
    I don't think which is the dominant and inferior function "doesn't matter anymore" by age 50. your example makes sense overall though. in my teens, I thought I was a hot shot with Te, but the reality was that I had shitty organizational abilities, didn't know how to plan and was mistaking my intuition for "thinking". I've always been distrustful of empirical evidence which didn't match my hunches, but, in my early 20s, I'm learning to take it into consideration more, even if it's not my preferred means.
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  4. #54
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by senza tema View Post
    I like my STJ friends because they make me feel like they're making an exception for me in their well ordered worlds.
    Oh my god, I hadn't even thought about it that way, but we totally do that. My ENFP best friend lives as an exception to every rule I have about everything -- the way she lives her life is so counterintuitive to me that I have to just shake my head at her antics and keep quiet. But I stick around because...
    Quote Originally Posted by senza tema View Post
    But to my credit, I help them write nice emails to people and teach them how to reject romantic overtures nicely.
    ... of that ^

    (Also, the humor "click" that other people have mentioned, and various other things listed earlier in the thread.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    Reading the first page vs. my own thoughts, it's funny that the FPs seem to be attracted by our differences, whereas I feel attracted by our similarities: Our Fi, as EJCC pointed out (though she framed it as a difference, as well). That Fi seeking out something similar to itself. Maybe this is why STJs and FPs are types usually known for their "high standards", but it's something I admire in them and recognize as an attitude we share.
    You're right that it is something shared, technically. We speak the same Fi language -- not like when you're talking to an Fe user and are privy to having your Fi dismissed, unless you explain it properly. (Which is difficult!)
    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    @Redbone Yes, I love when the people I'm close to realize that. I like that concept of having my own private world, privy to few.
    I wonder if this is related to instinctual variants as well, but I struggle between that extreme and the opposite extreme, where I let everyone in and try to be everyone's friend. But how that ends up in practice (due to lack of energy and some serious boundary-setting), is that everyone is friends with that 25% of me. I get the impression sometimes that people don't realize there's more to me under there, but the closer the friend, the more they see of that. So that gradual reveal is something that appeals to me as well
    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    It fascinates me why TJs (particularly ExTJs) have any interest in connecting to Fi. Part of me struggles to comprehend what the hell they could get out of it. Maybe its a misconception but it seems to me that TJs seem to see Fi as equivalent to weakness (in the broadest sense of the word). Actually what I'm talking about is less developed TJs, because as they get older they seem to soften and are less critical of Fi qualities. But really, I remember so many occasions where (often younger) TJs seem offended by my Fi-ness - like they couldn't stand how backward it was. I just don't how they can go from that reaction to feeling pleasure in it. It's also hard for me to get why someone so driven by hard logic and so self-assured in the way they see the world (as TJs generally are) would slowly back away from that over time. I know in theory that they're discovering the complexities of the world and learning to live with the 'grey areas', but still...
    Can't speak for other ExTJs, but a big part of how I've been able to get better with that, over time, has been through attempts to introspect as objectively as possible. Analyzing the anger and fear that Fi can create in me. Asking myself: "Why does this freak you out? Is it really going to do you any harm?" It's still not my favorite thing, but now at least I'm more forgiving of it in other people, and I recognize its necessity within myself.

    I also had a moment of awakening last year, when my ENFP friend (and I think a few Fi-users on this forum?) pretty much told me that they would PREFER if I showed more Fi. That I'd end up being a better and much more reciprocal friend, if I was more open with that soft side. Like...
    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I have to say though, there are few things more disarmingly charming than a TJ (again, particularly a ExTJ) momentarily displaying strong Fi traits. It makes me go all mushy inside to see pillars of strength give a little.
    ... that sort of comment. ^ I wanted to be the best friend that I could be, so I adapted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Relating to what I said above, I don't think you guys realise how overwhelming the endless complexities of the world can be for us NFPs. It's tiring to deal with reality on a case by case basis. Te can just cut through the crap like a knife and get right to the crux of the matter, which can feel like lifting a huge mental burden. It brings clarity where once there was confusion and mental disarray. STJs in general have this (what I call a) restorative quality. It's like when things get off track they bring things back to where they need to be. It's a protective quality but it also renews our awareness and appreciation of what is important.
    Excellent. This is what I aim for.
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  5. #55
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    @EJCC And it does not bother you that your ENFP friend breaks all the rules you hold so dear? I always end up feeling like I'm having my 'bad behaviour' excused while I don't deserve it when that happens
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  6. #56
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Can't speak for other ExTJs, but a big part of how I've been able to get better with that, over time, has been through attempts to introspect as objectively as possible. Analyzing the anger and fear that Fi can create in me. Asking myself: "Why does this freak you out? Is it really going to do you any harm?" It's still not my favorite thing, but now at least I'm more forgiving of it in other people, and I recognize its necessity within myself.
    Interesting. So do you mean that you slowly become more aware of those underlying Fi drives within yourself and how much they undermine your intentions/goals/decisions etc? Is it something you try to conquer or more a process of release?

    I also had a moment of awakening last year, when my ENFP friend (and I think a few Fi-users on this forum?) pretty much told me that they would PREFER if I showed more Fi. That I'd end up being a better and much more reciprocal friend, if I was more open with that soft side. Like...

    ... that sort of comment. ^ I wanted to be the best friend that I could be, so I adapted.
    But doesn't that feel like compromising yourself? Or is it just a relief to let go a little?

    Also are you really able to choose to show your softer side? In other words, is it something you consciously withhold until the right time? I just find it interesting that you see it as an option, rather than a background aspect of yourself that you don't have much control over.

    But then I suppose I am getting to the point where I can choose to show Te. More and more I can decide to deal with a situation with Te rather than filter it through Fi.
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    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  7. #57
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    ...is that everyone is friends with that 25% of me. I get the impression sometimes that people don't realize there's more to me under there, but the closer the friend, the more they see of that.
    I agree with that, too, except I think my friends and acquaintances are aware that they're only seeing a portion of me. Though with my best friends, it's probably more like 80%.
    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Also are you really able to choose to show your softer side? In other words, is it something you consciously withhold until the right time?
    Tangentially related to this, I've been on dates before where afterward it was said, "If you were into her, you clearly would have shown more interest." For me, though, withholding that is my natural state. So it seems pretty conscious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    But really, I remember so many occasions where (often younger) TJs seem offended by my Fi-ness - like they couldn't stand how backward it was. I just don't how they can go from that reaction to feeling pleasure in it.
    and also @Amargith

    Well, if your Fi was more "visible", I think that might be off-putting for some STJs. I guess I tend to admire Fi when it's used more indirectly, and you can see its effects through other means, like looking at a building and admiring the builder who you never saw or met or know anything about. It's still true that I don't handle well when people get "emotional", and I usually don't appreciate rule-breakers who just like to show how Rule-Breakerish they are, but if it has a solid principle behind it, I can (often slowly, sometimes quickly) support that, too. If I don't know you, I'll probably assume it's the former, but if we're friends, I trust your judgment to some extent and probably assume it's the latter. But that really varies based on situation.
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  8. #58
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    Tangentially related to this, I've been on dates before where afterward it was said, "If you were into her, you clearly would have shown more interest." For me, though, withholding that is my natural state. So it seems pretty conscious.
    Me too

    Well, if your Fi was more "visible", I think that might be off-putting for some STJs. I guess I tend to admire Fi when it's used more indirectly, and you can see its effects through other means, like looking at a building and admiring the builder who you never saw or met or know anything about. It's still true that I don't handle well when people get "emotional", and I usually don't appreciate rule-breakers who just like to show how Rule-Breakerish they are, but if it has a solid principle behind it, I can (often slowly, sometimes quickly) support that, too. If I don't know you, I'll probably assume it's the former, but if we're friends, I trust your judgment to some extent and probably assume it's the latter. But that really varies based on situation.
    Hmmm. I'm just trying to think of a time when my Fi is very loud. Usually it's when I'm arguing some bleeding heart liberal agenda, but even this is more tempered with Te now. I had an impassioned, but not heated debate with my INTJ friend about homeless people the other day. I was quite proud of myself for presenting my ideas in a semi-Te manner and actually getting him to a point where he didn't have a counter-argument on one aspect. Proud not because I wanted to win (although it is incredible to be able to out-argue him, a master of debate, on any subject ) so much as I was able to debate on more equal terms and keep up. It's not always easy to order my thoughts in the moment like that. Si+Te is helping me to form a memory bank of well-thought out arguments, though.

    Also I do have this (Fi-Ne) ditsy/silly streak that does seem to be a major STJ repellent (although it was more present before my mid 20s). The expressive sighs and eye rolling can be deafening. Sadly, a ENTJ school friend I had basically became an enemy over this trait as we got into our late teens. She used to rip me apart and publicly humiliate me whenever it happened.
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    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  9. #59
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    But then I suppose I am getting to the point where I can choose to show Te. More and more I can decide to deal with a situation with Te rather than filter it through Fi.
    No, I don't think that's really what's happening. Te is still colored by the lenses of the preceding functions. The motivation for "being" Te will always be driven by Fi. I think of it as accepting the risk or consequences ... that to me is the choice. I've found in myself I can suppress the resulting emotional elements only for so long. They are never NOT participating.

    ---------------------

    Overall, I think some of this discussion is mixing up emotion with Fi. I might come back to this thread later and tease open the strands.
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  10. #60
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    No, I don't think that's really what's happening. Te is still colored by the lenses of the preceding functions. The motivation for "being" Te will always be driven by Fi.
    Absolutely. I didn't mean it in a literal sense - I was only describing how it 'feels'.

    I think of it as accepting the risk or consequences ... that to me is the choice. I've found in myself I can suppress the resulting emotional elements only for so long. They are never NOT participating.
    I don't really see that way exactly. It feels like a decision not to internalise something negative (or not to internalise as much - if that makes sense), and to instead deal with it externally in a particular way that's hard to describe. I suppose I would say it's finding some external closure as a way of preventing me stressing over it. It's usually something that I don't need to internalise and fret over, so in that sense it is a healthier thing for me.

    Although, this may all be merely an illusionary impression I guess. Or it could be down to being a e4.
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    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

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