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  1. #31
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    This is such a tangent, and not asked for by the OP, but I felt that your response deserved a reply, pm.

    Can two people rape each other simultaneously and without a struggle by either party? So do they both get jail time, then, or what? Why is it only ever the male who's accused of date rape when two drunk people have drunken sex?

    I've never in my entire life been asked for permission to have sex with me, drunk or sober, and I'd laugh hysterically if I was. Do I need to start asking permission before sex too? It's only fair. Assuming no force/coercion etc is involved, women are just as capable as men are of making wise or foolish decisions, whether drunk/high or sober. Taking responsibility for your own actions = way cool (and it seems like you've gone this route, Harlow, for which I applaud you). Blaming others = lame. Especially when criminal charges are involved.
    OK, Harlow has not yet answered the question of if the guy that she had sex with was drunk himself. Two drunk people having sex is different from one person who is drunk and the other who is sober taking advantage of the other's drunken state.

    But either way Harlow has stated emphatically that it WAS NOT CONSENSUAL. Rape is defined as forced, non-consensual sex. Here are definitions and scenarios:
    Rape is forced, unwanted sexual intercourse. Rape, sometimes also called sexual assault, can happen to both men and women of any age.
    Source

    Here are five hypothetical situations that may help clarify just what is and what is not sexual assault :
    1. Peter and Sue are at a party and Sue becomes very drunk. They go back to Sue's room. Sue passes out. Peter has sex with her. Is this rape?

    Analysis: Because Sue is unconscious, she is unable to consent to having sex with Peter. When someone has sex with a person who is incapable of giving consent, it is rape. If your partner is so drunk that he or she does not comprehend what is happening, he or she cannot give consent.


    2. Peter and Sue are at a party and Peter becomes very drunk. They go back to Sue's room. Peter makes sexual advances and Sue protests. Peter is drunk and feels that he cannot control his desires. He ignores her resistance and has sex with her. Is this rape?

    Analysis: Rape does not depend on the perpetrator's state of mind. It depends on what is objectively reasonable in the situation. Peter's incapacity or insensitivity due to drinking is not an excuse for forcing another person to have sex. Drunk or not, it is rape.

    3. Peter and Paul have been involved in a sexual relationship for several months. Paul decides to end the relationship and goes to Peter's room to tell him. When he tries to tell Peter, Peter embraces him. Paul protests and resists, but Peter forces him on the bed and has sex with him. Is this rape?

    Analysis: Forced sex without a partne's consent is rape, regardless of any pre-existing sexual relationship.

    4. Sarah and Sue are alone. Sarah kisses Sue and makes other sexual advances. Sue goes along with it by removing Sarah's shorts. Sue doesn't want to have sex with Sarah but she is not comfortable telling her. Sarah thinks Sue is willing to have sex because she does not protest or resist. They have sex, but the whole time Sue is thinking that she does not want to be having sex. Is this rape?

    Analysis: In this situation it appears that Sue has consented to having sex. Although she has not verbally granted Sarah permission to proceed, her act of removing Sarah's shorts would likely be considered consent by a reasonable person. The alleged victim's state of mind is not relevant to the offence if she does not otherwise communicate her feelings or if she acts in a manner that can reasonably be interpreted as consent in light of the surrounding circumstances. As always, if threat or intimidation were present in the situation then Sarah would have reason to believe that Sue's cooperation was not voluntary. In the absence of such circumstances, if Sue is responsive to Sarah's advances and does not communicate her unwillingness, it is not rape.

    5. Peter and Sue leave a party together. Peter walks Sue back to her room. While alone with Sue in her room, Peter kisses Sue and makes other sexual advances. Sue doesn't like Peter and doesn’t want to have sex with him. Peter thinks Sue is willing to have sex because she does not protest or resist. He has sex with her. Is it rape?

    Analysis: While this situation may seem ambiguous, Sue did not make any statements or gestures that Peter could reasonably have interpreted as an affirmative expression of consent. In such cases, the perpetrator must take reasonable steps to ascertain that the victim was consenting. Lack of objection by someone is not evidence of consent, and consent is essential because sex without it is rape.
    Source

    The bolded part seems like Harlow's situation. Maybe we're working off different definitions of what rape is.

    Harlow says she's OK with what happened. If she wasn't would you still be saying the same things? Just because she's not upset by what happened doesn't mean that what happened to her wasn't a violation.

    It seems to me that you and Alicia think this is more like the fourth scenario than the first. Is this correct?

  2. #32
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    So, Randomnity, since I find myself on the PC side this time (), how many times do you think I've been involved in a formal exchange of permission?

    It seems to me that you and alicia91 are assuming more than we've been told. (Oh, the delicious irony of an INTJ saying this to two ISTPs! ) Or do you really think that the following positively does not describe a rape?



    I'm not saying she needs to press charges or otherwise ruin the guy's life. Maybe there is just a little more to the story that counts as mitigating circumstances. (Although if not, I'd be concerned as to whether the guy would take advantage of other girls in the future.) My purpose in bringing up the 'r' word was to shed light upon why the ESFJ isn't buying Harlow_Jem's story:



    I'm thinking that most women would either concede that the sex was somehow consensual (which H_J doesn't) or feel at least a little bit traumatized (which H_J doesn't). It's a rare woman who will react completely dispassionately to a non-consensual act of sex, like it was a car accident that was no one's fault, and so I don't blame the ESFJ for thinking she's lying about her part in inviting, or rather, in not inviting the event.

    And if there were mitigating circumstances that we haven't heard about, maybe it's best if he thinks that way; I'm not sure the odds are good that an ESFJ man would react equally dispassionately to 'a car accident that was no one's fault'.
    I didn't say it wasn't rape necessarily in this situation, I was protesting about throwing around such emotionally-loaded terms when we don't know all the facts. All we know is that she doesn't remember (and therefore she thinks it was non-consensual). Anything could have happened. I was mainly protesting the overuse of the word in general.

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    OK, Harlow has not yet answered the question of if the guy that she had sex with was drunk himself. Two drunk people having sex is different from one person who is drunk and the other who is sober taking advantage of the other's drunken state.

    But either way Harlow has stated emphatically that it WAS NOT CONSENSUAL. Rape is defined as forced, non-consensual sex. Here are definitions and scenarios:
    Source

    Here are five hypothetical situations that may help clarify just what is and what is not sexual assault :

    Source

    The bolded part seems like Harlow's situation. Maybe we're working off different definitions of what rape is.

    Harlow says she's OK with what happened. If she wasn't would you still be saying the same things? Just because she's not upset by what happened doesn't mean that what happened to her wasn't a violation.

    It seems to me that you and Alicia think this is more like the fourth scenario than the first. Is this correct?
    I definitely did not assume she passed out, since I didn't read anything along those lines...she just didn't remember. If she was actually unconscious that is a very different matter and in that case I completely agree with you....because it is obvious to any potential partner that consent is impossible.

    Even "too drunk to consent" is a shaky thing to judge even from an internal POV, let alone an external one.

    Yes, I would say the same thing regardless of her emotional reaction. If you can't remember anything about an event you can't say anything about the circumstances. She may have been consensual at the time until the memory was lost. She may not have been. We can't know, so I object to making accusations when we don't know the story.

  3. #33
    heart on fire
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    5. Peter and Sue leave a party together. Peter walks Sue back to her room. While alone with Sue in her room, Peter kisses Sue and makes other sexual advances. Sue doesn't like Peter and doesn’t want to have sex with him. Peter thinks Sue is willing to have sex because she does not protest or resist. He has sex with her. Is it rape?

    Analysis: While this situation may seem ambiguous, Sue did not make any statements or gestures that Peter could reasonably have interpreted as an affirmative expression of consent. In such cases, the perpetrator must take reasonable steps to ascertain that the victim was consenting. Lack of objection by someone is not evidence of consent, and consent is essential because sex without it is rape.
    Wow. If Sue is not able to say at the very least "no thanks" in situations like this, or to even just put her hand up over her mouth to prevent a kiss, she needs intensive help. She should not be going out alone at all. The only time I could see this being realistic for a person of normal intelligence is with a minor teen with an authority figure, but that's not the senario given. Still it is pretty creepy that a guy wouldn't ask or want some sort of compliance for his own reassurance or gratification.


    EDIT: Thinking about this rape issue with the two drunk people. We don't let drunk drivers off when they harm others. So I suppose that has implications for people who get drunk and ingage in sexual acts with each other, but Random brings up a good point about the lack of memory being a problem here. Cannot know if consent was given or not.

  4. #34
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Wow. If Sue is not able to say at the very least "no thanks" in situations like this, or to even just put her hand up over her mouth to prevent a kiss, she needs intensive help. She should not be going out alone at all. The only time I could see this being realistic for a person of normal intelligence is with a minor teen with an authority figure, but that's not the senario given. Still it is pretty creepy that a guy wouldn't ask or want some sort of compliance for his own reassurance or gratification.
    Yeah, this scenario was questionable to me as well. I don't think Peter is guilty of anything. If Sue didn't muster up at least a yelp she needs to chill on the dating thing for a minute until she learns the power of no.

  5. #35
    heart on fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Yeah, this scenario was questionable to me as well. I don't think Peter is guilty of anything. If Sue didn't muster up at least a yelp she needs to chill on the dating thing for a minute until she learns the power of no.
    Like maybe live in a group home or something with an "older sister" to go around with her for a while.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post

    5. Peter and Sue leave a party together. Peter walks Sue back to her room. While alone with Sue in her room, Peter kisses Sue and makes other sexual advances. Sue doesn't like Peter and doesn’t want to have sex with him. Peter thinks Sue is willing to have sex because she does not protest or resist. He has sex with her. Is it rape?

    Analysis: While this situation may seem ambiguous, Sue did not make any statements or gestures that Peter could reasonably have interpreted as an affirmative expression of consent. In such cases, the perpetrator must take reasonable steps to ascertain that the victim was consenting. Lack of objection by someone is not evidence of consent, and consent is essential because sex without it is rape.
    I understand the concept of consent in all the other examples, but in this one, I think I'm missing the point. Sue maybe doesn't want to have sex with Jim, but if she doesn't express at all her objection and doesn't resist at all, then why shouldn't he assume she does want to have sex with him? Actually if she doesn't resist or protest at all, the guy should have either read her mind or ask her "Hey, do you want to have sex with me?" to know she might have an objection.

  7. #37
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Yeah, this scenario was questionable to me as well. I don't think Peter is guilty of anything. If Sue didn't muster up at least a yelp she needs to chill on the dating thing for a minute until she learns the power of no.
    Completely agree. This is kinda what I meant by stretching the definition of rape too far (IMO). Guys aren't mindreaders (luckily, haha).

  8. #38
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Quick response as I'm running late for a picnic:

    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    I didn't say it wasn't rape necessarily in this situation, I was protesting about throwing around such emotionally-loaded terms when we don't know all the facts. All we know is that she doesn't remember (and therefore she thinks it was non-consensual). (...) I definitely did not assume she passed out, since I didn't read anything along those lines...she just didn't remember. If she was actually unconscious that is a very different matter and in that case I completely agree with you....because it is obvious to any potential partner that consent is impossible. (...) If you can't remember anything about an event you can't say anything about the circumstances. She may have been consensual at the time until the memory was lost. She may not have been. We can't know, so I object to making accusations when we don't know the story.
    Point taken. I hereby take your position.

    Note to self...:

    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    It seems to me that you and alicia91 are assuming more than we've been told. (Oh, the delicious irony of an INTJ saying this to two ISTPs! )
    ... Think twice before challenging the ISTPs!

  9. #39
    Welcome to Sunnyside Mondo's Avatar
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    5. Peter and Sue leave a party together. Peter walks Sue back to her room. While alone with Sue in her room, Peter kisses Sue and makes other sexual advances. Sue doesn't like Peter and doesn’t want to have sex with him. Peter thinks Sue is willing to have sex because she does not protest or resist. He has sex with her. Is it rape?

    Analysis: While this situation may seem ambiguous, Sue did not make any statements or gestures that Peter could reasonably have interpreted as an affirmative expression of consent. In such cases, the perpetrator must take reasonable steps to ascertain that the victim was consenting. Lack of objection by someone is not evidence of consent, and consent is essential because sex without it is rape.
    As heart said, I don't think this is realistic for a person with normal intelligence unless were drugs were involved.
    However, from looking at the situation- this would be considered rape.
    On the other hand, who knows what happened here? Peter could have drugged Sue up before they had sex to make her more 'mellow' and unable to object even though she would have done so in a non-drugged up situation. "Peter walks Sue back to her room"- that could have been because Sue wasn't feeling well enough to walk back there herself.
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  10. #40
    Senior Member Harlow_Jem's Avatar
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    Putting all the "rape" discussions aside, I've updated my situation in my original post, so please help me encode this ESFJ!

    "I have no need for good souls; an accomplice is what I want"--Sartre


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