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  1. #21
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chubber View Post
    ESFJs continue to surprise me.

    Your specific question was related to ESFJ. Maybe your problem with them is more Fe-dom related and you wish to connect to them on Ne? My best guess is that when it comes to ESFJs, you will have to be consistent and show it through your actions (not being flaky), to feed that Fe Si combo of ESFJs. Once they trust you, they will probably open up more. I also tried the Ne approach with them. It does interest them, but Fe Si will be always have this watchful eye over you, hence the requirement of showing them through actions.
    It wasn't. It was related to Ne-tertiaries aka ESxJs. This is seriously nothing more than I asked about. I used the ESFJ as an example for what I was theorising. She has nothing to do with my motivations for this thread though. I am specifically interested in how they experience dominant Ne.
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  2. #22
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    See, I would love to believe that. I so want that to be true. But let's face it - *EVERY* dominant function rules like a king. It's the perspective you see the world through and it can get domineering with others, for sure. That includes Ne.

    I...find that for myself it manifests itself in sheer irony - in typical Ne trickster fashion.

    I find myself insisting that other people *see* all f**** angles already, it aint that hard! That they see all povs of other people and take them into account. Occasionally, the misunderstandings that happen due to not seeing each others pov makes me wanna

    But...let's face it. That is a form of hypocrisy as I'm shoving Ne(Fi) pov switching down their throat
    It's the eternal question of...do you get to be intolerant towards intolerance and how is it not hypocritical?
    This, I think is where Fi vs. Ti makes a difference. I personally have no problem with people calling me on my bullshit, as long as they're making their case well and with intent to convince me. (I'd rather be corrected and embarrassed than allowed to make a terrible mistake.) I find that people are sometimes afraid to correct me -- which is part of why I love my ENFP bestie like I do. She's completely unafraid to show me those new perspectives.

    By contrast: ENTPs would be as likely, or more likely, to troll or mock me for being wrong, without correcting me directly. Also by contrast, ESFJs would probably have no patience for blunt correction, and would find it more embarrassing and inappropriate than helpful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    It is possibly also the correlation between the aux and the inferior. Ive noticed lately that the Dominant and the tertiary fight like adult and teenager, and the aux and the inferior possibly have a similar relationship as the big sister who sighs that the baby is so f*** helpless it needs everything spelled out.
    I definitely see that. Reflects well on my ENFP friend's relationship with me and vice versa. There's a maternal element that goes both ways. We never fight, though.
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  3. #23
    Chaser of Light Dr Mobius's Avatar
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    Very interesting thread; I don’t think I have ever seen this particular topic discussed.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post


    This, I think is where Fi vs. Ti makes a difference. I personally have no problem with people calling me on my bullshit, as long as they're making their case well and with intent to convince me. (I'd rather be corrected and embarrassed than allowed to make a terrible mistake.) I find that people are sometimes afraid to correct me -- which is part of why I love my ENFP bestie like I do. She's completely unafraid to show me those new perspectives.

    By contrast: ENTPs would be as likely, or more likely, to troll or mock me for being wrong, without correcting me directly. Also by contrast, ESFJs would probably have no patience for blunt correction, and would find it more embarrassing and inappropriate than helpful.
    Perhaps I can offer some perspective on this from my point of view? You see by forcing my perspective on you I’d be doing two things; controlling you and reducing your ability to think critically. Whereas if I reduce your perspective to the ridiculous I force you to revaluate your point of view and do so without demanding you bow to my perspective. In the long term this will serve you better than pulling you up. I should say that this only applies to me; but given the egalitarian streak I’ve noticed among ENTPs I wouldn’t be surprised if it applied to others.
    “Brighter, now brighter, pay no mind to those who squint, burn with all your heat.”

  4. #24
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Mobius View Post
    Very interesting thread; I don’t think I have ever seen this particular topic discussed.



    Perhaps I can offer some perspective on this from my point of view? You see by forcing my perspective on you I’d be doing two things; controlling you and reducing your ability to think critically. Whereas if I reduce your perspective to the ridiculous I force you to revaluate your point of view and do so without demanding you bow to my perspective. In the long term this will serve you better than pulling you up. I should say that this only applies to me; but given the egalitarian streak I’ve noticed among ENTPs I wouldn’t be surprised if it applied to others.
    TBH it has always seemed less egalitarian to me. Seriously discussing the issue with me seems more respectful, and means you've taken yourself to my level. You're offering your opinion and allowing me to decide based on our combined evidence. Whereas mockery is done from a pedestal; whether it's meant this way or not, it seems like the aim is to look superior; too cool and too "right" to stoop to my level.

    I can see where you're coming from, regarding letting them make their own decision. I guess what matters is that the ENTP learn how to do that lighthearted mockery without being an asshole about it. Which is very possible, of course -- my older ENTP friends and my INTP dad are great at it -- but the younger ENTPs I know don't seem to care all that much about tactful mockery.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  5. #25
    Chaser of Light Dr Mobius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    TBH it has always seemed less egalitarian to me
    I probably should have clarified this; the intention is usually egalitarian. As they say hell is paved with good intentions.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Seriously discussing the issue with me seems more respectful, and means you've taken yourself to my level. You're offering your opinion and allowing me to decide based on our combined evidence.
    I think this is dependent on how far off base you are with the issue. If you are merely missing a few key pieces of information or are labouring under a misconception; then I would probably point that out. But what if you are completely misguided? Then by extension you evidence and reasoning are all erroneous and incompatible with my evidence. In my mind indirectly forcing you to reconsider is the least condescending and usually most effective way. If on the other hand I simply out and say what is wrong to often a person’s pride comes into play; I mean the internet is awash with such battles over pride.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Whereas mockery is done from a pedestal; whether it's meant this way or not, it seems like the aim is to look superior; too cool and too "right" to stoop to my level.
    The problem with this is that when one person is wrong and the other right there is always a level of condescension. It’s more about minimising it and not putting someone’s backup unnecessarily.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I can see where you're coming from, regarding letting them make their own decision. I guess what matters is that the ENTP learn how to do that lighthearted mockery without being an asshole about it. Which is very possible, of course -- my older ENTP friends and my INTP dad are great at it -- but the younger ENTPs I know don't seem to care all that much about tactful mockery.
    Absolutely, as someone who has spent far too much time reading through ENTP forums I do understand where you are coming from. I think it has a lot to do with the pride and insecurity of youth; mainly because most types do it. It just emerges in different forms; for ENTPs it has to do with those descriptions of, well flashing brilliance. To prove in a single twist your own superiority and what better format then sharp short sarcastic mockery?

    I do hope I’m not coming across as condescending in this discussion; that would be rather hypocritical and it’s certainly not my intent. But I would not claim to know how I come across online.
    “Brighter, now brighter, pay no mind to those who squint, burn with all your heat.”

  6. #26
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Mobius View Post
    I probably should have clarified this; the intention is usually egalitarian. As they say hell is paved with good intentions.
    Makes sense. I've had some interesting friendships with INTJs -- who are by nature very focused on individualism and autonomy -- that have fallen into similar traps.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Mobius View Post
    I think this is dependent on how far off base you are with the issue. If you are merely missing a few key pieces of information or are labouring under a misconception; then I would probably point that out. But what if you are completely misguided? Then by extension you evidence and reasoning are all erroneous and incompatible with my evidence.
    I usually enter into interactions with folks under the assumption that they aren't completely misguided. But once they've proven themselves to be completely misguided, that's when I understand where the mockery comes in. Just a communication style difference; I don't know if either way is "superior". Part of why it rubs me the wrong way, is probably because that's my style, i.e. "why not give the person a chance on their level before you go the indirect route?"
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Mobius View Post
    In my mind indirectly forcing you to reconsider is the least condescending and usually most effective way. If on the other hand I simply out and say what is wrong to often a person’s pride comes into play; I mean the internet is awash with such battles over pride.
    There's middle ground, there. For example, the conversation we're having now -- which began with you saying "here's another perspective", but could just as easily begin with "but what about ____", "have you considered ____", etc. Those are all direct, but not rude or accusatory.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Mobius View Post
    The problem with this is that when one person is wrong and the other right there is always a level of condescension. It’s more about minimising it and not putting someone’s backup unnecessarily.
    Good point. I agree.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Mobius View Post
    Absolutely, as someone who has spent far too much time reading through ENTP forums I do understand where you are coming from. I think it has a lot to do with the pride and insecurity of youth; mainly because most types do it. It just emerges in different forms; for ENTPs it has to do with those descriptions of, well flashing brilliance. To prove in a single twist your own superiority and what better format then sharp short sarcastic mockery?
    Makes sense. You see people make those brilliant conversation-ending one-liners on TV and in movies, and can't help but romanticize that style.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Mobius View Post
    I do hope I’m not coming across as condescending in this discussion; that would be rather hypocritical and it’s certainly not my intent. But I would not claim to know how I come across online.
    Not at all -- this is exactly what I was describing before, re: the style that I like better. Discussion with productive aims, and no trolling or rudeness to be found.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  7. #27
    Wandering... Emperor Enigma's Avatar
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    My friend, who's probably an ESFJ, calls me a deranged dog and a genius... in a matter of minutes. Don't know if this explains much.

  8. #28
    Chaser of Light Dr Mobius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I usually enter into interactions with folks under the assumption that they aren't completely misguided. But once they've proven themselves to be completely misguided, that's when I understand where the mockery comes in. Just a communication style difference; I don't know if either way is "superior". Part of why it rubs me the wrong way, is probably because that's my style, i.e. "why not give the person a chance on their level before you go the indirect route?"
    Interesting, yes very much a difference in communication style. In my mind the question is: “why not give the person a chance to reason for themselves?” because in my mind while questioning someone’s reasoning is valid; if I was to direct them I would be questioning their intellectual capacity. I would by extension be saying that the individual was incapable of thinking for themselves and that reducing their autonomy was a necessary course of action; which I suppose is just a longwinded way of saying egalitarian intensions.

    •I should point out that I have seen a tendency in some ENTPs to use the indirect route as an intellectual barrier, if you can pass it you are worth communicating with.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    There's middle ground, there. For example, the conversation we're having now -- which began with you saying "here's another perspective", but could just as easily begin with "but what about ____", "have you considered ____", etc. Those are all direct, but not rude or accusatory.
    I regularly use the “have you considered_____”, it’s definitely a useful phrase. But even these have their limits, especially when it comes to ah sacred cows for wont of a better phrase, and given your joining date; I bet you have seen what odd things people hold sacred. I have noticed that for those individuals nothing less than an indirect route will get them to take a step back and analyse.

    One of the advantages of a more indirect route (if done properly.) is that people will go back reread and reconsider their point of view, and sometimes come back with interesting and original point of view. This can lead to my favourite form of discussion; that of equal information transference.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Makes sense. You see people make those brilliant conversation-ending one-liners on TV and in movies, and can't help but romanticize that style.
    I just wish they were original and creative about it, but so often it is the same worn old trope.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Not at all -- this is exactly what I was describing before, re: the style that I like better. Discussion with productive aims, and no trolling or rudeness to be found.
    Excellent , while I spend time reading on forums, I don’t really post (this is my most active account). Due to the one dimensional nature of it; I keep thinking there is a whole lot of subtext that I’m missing.
    “Brighter, now brighter, pay no mind to those who squint, burn with all your heat.”

  9. #29
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    It would be interesting to see how Esfjs respond to that mocking style

    In fact, this topic merits a thread of its own as i believe it to be the crux of the Ti vs Fi problem.

    Mocking reads as inherent disrespect for who the person is and what they have to offer to Fi. It can feel extremely humiliating - which is clearly the opposite of what you intend it to do.
    I personally only respond well to it if i know for sure where i stand with the perdon and they clearly mean it in a playful way as we re horsing around. Id even say that that tactic without a good handle on Fe is lethal to your bond with the other person though id love to hear that confirmed or refuted by other FeTi users.

    At the same time i recognize the structure as i use it with Fi. I dont guide, i just point out things that amuse me and ask odd seeming questions about their values' consistency before leaving them to their thoughts. And if done with too much trickster energy, people do believe im mocking them, instead of being amused at the irony in the situation or process, so i have to watch that. I do that for the same reason you do -to respect their pov while putting question marks next to the perceived inconsistencies. Which is why Fe can be oppressive to us - like Te is for you, no doubt.

    As Ti is my blindspot, i have no clue what you mock me for other than your own entertainment and i often end up feeling mobbed if you do it in public. Does my Fi feel the same to you?

    Would you stop, if the person asked you to? Or explain what you did why? Even guide them, and converse instead the way you just did with EJCC?
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  10. #30
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    I've noticed, in my reactions with ExFJs... I find myself pretty certain of their intentions, even though they are rarely directly stated. They aren't trying to hide what they want from me, even if they aren't stating it outright or are not telling me everything. ExFPs just bewilder me, and sometimes I feel like they are trying to manipulate me to get something they want, even though they will never admit to this. I think it's because they are more likely to approach it from my point of view, but I get the sense that they wouldn't be doing this if they didn't also want something. When this happens, it seems like they are trying sell me something, and that kind of rubs me the wrong way. It has the opposite effect and increases my mistrust.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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