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  1. #1
    Member Elaine's Avatar
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    Default Manipulative ISTJs: Is it possible?

    Umm... Hi! It' s rather unusual for me to write on a forum that is not about my type, but anyway...
    I have a question about my mom. According to my observations, she is an ISTJ. I' m not really an experienced typer, but I can say she is an ISTJ by following qualities:
    - She is rather introverted, her work involves socializing with people, and when she returns home, she seems tired. Prefers our small family to large companies. Enjoys movies more than meeting real people. ( however, I don' t remember her in her youth, since she had me at the age of 30. She might be an E who has grown cynical and world - weary)
    - She is very traditional by - the - book. Mostly follows the rules and trusted ways to do things. Sometimes a little bit too concervative when it comes to explanations about unexplained things in the world. Like, she believes there are witches, devils, dark spirits, and other such things( I know this might an F trait, but she believes in them, because, according to her logic, " most people believe, and majority can' t be wrong" , which might also be an overly - traditional - ST logic) , while I try to find a more scientific explanation to this, like: aliens, parallel worlds of another matter, extrasensorical abilities caused by some unstudied section of brain, or some another organ that might answer for them.
    - She pays a lot of attention to detail. She is a neat freak. And little things always worry her more than the big ones, which seem unreachable to her, while I am more into big plans and little things seem too little for me to notice. She may not tell me how good I am in math, but she will definately go berserk if I didn' t put my socks into the wardrobe, or if I close the door loudly, or if I won' t pack my schoolbag the exact time she said.
    - She likes planning, and living by the plan, while this tires me a lot. When we go on a sea vacation, she sets up a strict schedule, in which we have to wake up at 7 a. m. and go to the beach, because sun becomes radioactive after 12 p: m. After 2 weeks, I' m like " Mom? We follow this schedule so many days along. Maybe we can make an exception and sleep or at least go for a walk? " .
    - She likes logic, and, like me, dislikes irrationality. However, our definitions of logic somewhat vary. She has more down - to - earth, carry - out - an - action logic, while my logic is more clody, generate - an - idea type.
    So, for reasons above I consider her an ISTJ. However, there is one gift that seems out - of -type( or at least something I don' t know about her type) . She is a capable manipulator( and maybe even something more) , and even applies it to me sometimes. When we' re arguing or have some disagreement, it first ends as a draw even if I' m logically right. We walk away from each other, and once again when I see her, she either talks to me as if this didn' t happen, or she totally ignores me. But either way, for some reason she makes me feel so guilty that I throw out my logic and start apologizing right away. After this passes, I feel I shouldn' t have acted like that, I should' ve stood up for my opinion, but in some minutes I start feeling this guilt once again, this time that I don' t want another fight to disturb her. I tried manipulation defence, but it never worked, every time this happened I still felt guilty. As far as I know, my class( I mean NTs, INTJs especially) and not SJs are better manipulators. But this even seems more than manipulation. This is some kind of an extraordinary gift I will never be able to understand. Or maybe she just manipulates so masterfully that I don' t even notice this. Like I said, she showed very little N traits. But is it possible that she developed her Ne in order to achieve that? Or if she didn' t, what is this thing?
    Last edited by Elaine; 09-26-2013 at 10:50 AM.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Vilku's Avatar
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    congratulations, youve discovered the nasty side of typology. or for me, the reason i am into typology to begin with.
    (honestly i would prefer my own intuitive understanding of people, which.. oh, is blind to the dangers people pose.)

    no, istj's learn manipulation by trial and error. zero intuition. its compensatory method for depriving the Ne.
    healthiness is all about appreciating other peoples inferior function. its like the sore spot no one ever notices, but we desperately wish they did, and if you focus on doing that, youll have many friends. and also learn to appreciate your own inferior function, others wont find it stupid if you show them how cool it is.

    INTJ 4w3 Sp Sx. (i dont believe in tritype. i do believe in learning traits from others.)

    mistakes happen. expect them, and grow from them. look for them, and avoid them.

  3. #3
    Member Elaine's Avatar
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    I guesst that' s because she had a lot of things in her life she considers as trials and errors. Like, she married my dad and had me, but soon she realised my dad was a lazy bastard( or at least that' s what she said) , they divorced when I was about 2, then she started avoiding love( and heartbreak as one of it' s consequances) , considering it an error, and never got married again( for now, at least) . Also, like I said, she has a profession that involves working with people( a lawyer, to be certain) , maybe that' s why by communicating with people she learnt this.

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    I think enough time being a lawyer will teach anyone to manipulate. It's essential to the job. As a STJ, she's probably very good at observing cause and effect patterns and applying them. ISTJs especially are great at taking things apart, figuring out how they work, and rebuilding them. She may be taking that approach.
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  5. #5
    Supreme High Commander Andy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elaine View Post
    Umm... Hi! It' s rather unusual for me to write on a forum that is not about my type, but anyway...


    Leaving aside the question of whether or not your mother is an ISTJ, the answer to your question "Can ISTJs be manipulative" is yes. In fact any type can be manipulative. Function theory does not and cannot predict an individuals capabilities. All it deals with are peoples motivations. If you did are large enough statistical servay of one group, you'd find there were averages and trends, but that's all. There would be many exceptions - an INTP who's bad at maths, an ISTP who's good with children or an ESFJ who's skilled at accountancy.

    Even within its field of application, function theory is very broad, allowing for many different expressions of the same fundamental motivations. That's why you can fit 7 billion people into just 16 types.

    For an ISTJ to being a successful manipulator is usually rooted in a sense of detachment that comes from the tertiary Fi. That sort of ITJ doesn't become emotionally involved easily, which makes lying to others a lot easier. After that, it's just a matter of practice.
    Don't make whine out of sour grapes.

  6. #6
    The Dark Lord The Wailing Specter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy View Post
    Leaving aside the question of whether or not your mother is an ISTJ, the answer to your question "Can ISTJs be manipulative" is yes. In fact any type can be manipulative. Function theory does not and cannot predict an individuals capabilities. All it deals with are peoples motivations. If you did are large enough statistical servay of one group, you'd find there were averages and trends, but that's all. There would be many exceptions - an INTP who's bad at maths, an ISTP who's good with children or an ESFJ who's skilled at accountancy.

    Even within its field of application, function theory is very broad, allowing for many different expressions of the same fundamental motivations. That's why you can fit 7 billion people into just 16 types.

    For an ISTJ to being a successful manipulator is usually rooted in a sense of detachment that comes from the tertiary Fi. That sort of ITJ doesn't become emotionally involved easily, which makes lying to others a lot easier. After that, it's just a matter of practice.
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  7. #7
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    yes they can be, but i am not convinced your mother is manipulating you::

    Quote Originally Posted by Elaine View Post
    But either way, for some reason she makes me feel so guilty that I throw out my logic and start apologizing right away. After this passes, I feel I shouldn' t have acted like that, I should' ve stood up for my opinion, but in some minutes I start feeling this guilt once again, this time that I don' t want another fight to disturb her. I tried manipulation defence, but it never worked, every time this happened I still felt guilty. As far as I know, my class( I mean NTs, INTJs especially) and not SJs are better manipulators. But this even seems more than manipulation. This is some kind of an extraordinary gift I will never be able to understand. Or maybe she just manipulates so masterfully that I don' t even notice this. Like I said, she showed very little N traits. But is it possible that she developed her Ne in order to achieve that? Or if she didn' t, what is this thing?
    you seem to be assuming her intentions behind your own internal reaction, where there probably isn't any. that btw is actually pretty common for IxTPs (in contrast with manipulative behaviors for ISTJs, which is possible but isn't exactly a trend).

  8. #8
    Member Elaine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    yes they can be, but i am not convinced your mother is manipulating you::



    you seem to be assuming her intentions behind your own internal reaction, where there probably isn't any. that btw is actually pretty common for IxTPs (in contrast with manipulative behaviors for ISTJs, which is possible but isn't exactly a trend).
    Well, but she never listens to me, and she always manages to lead the communication the way that I end up being not right, even though logically I later understand that I was right. For all my memory, there were like... 2 cases when I won an argument with her.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elaine View Post
    Well, but she never listens to me, and she always manages to lead the communication the way that I end up being not right, even though logically I later understand that I was right. For all my memory, there were like... 2 cases when I won an argument with her.
    not listening to why you are wrong is the 100% full proof method of always being right... though still sounds more like stubbornness then manipulation.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elaine View Post
    Well, but she never listens to me, and she always manages to lead the communication the way that I end up being not right, even though logically I later understand that I was right. For all my memory, there were like... 2 cases when I won an argument with her.
    not listening to why you are wrong is the 100% full proof method of always being right... though still sounds more like stubbornness then manipulation.

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