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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    I don't even know what "S stuff" is or "N stuff" is????

    Sensors like making cookies and intuitors like making genocides. It's pretty easy once you get the hang, really.

  2. #22
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    Sensors like making cookies and intuitors like making genocides. It's pretty easy once you get the hang, really.
    N's are mean people. Lol

  3. #23
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    Gawd, it's scary how much you sound like my ex

    This I think is a flawed perception on your part and it's something my ex did that drove me nuts.

    It's not that ISFJs (and probably SJs as a whole to a larger extent) aren't curious about things, it's just that we tend to direct our curiosity toward things of practical value (or maybe that's just me). The only time I start to get into really abstract stuff is when said stuff is directly impacting my life in someway. As EJCC pointed out, it has to be something useful to us to feel like talking about it. This means that we DO have strong opinions about certain topics but unless we can find some valid reason to bring it up, we may just not feel like we really need to talk about it.

    For example, I have a very strong opinion religion. Does this mean I go about talking about it all the time? Not at all, and in fact I barely ever talk about it. Why is that you might ask? I don't talk about it much because I don't need too. There isn't anyone trying to impress their faith on to me, my rights haven't been suspended because of my beliefs, and by and large the people around can't seem to be bothered to bring the topic up with me so I simply don't really discuss it.

    Sensors are a very practical, here-and-now bunch and our thoughts tend to gravitate toward all of that. I do think about other stuff at time but by and large other things consumates thoughts in my head.
    I wholeheartedly agree with the bolded, but I don't necessarily agree with the direction the post went in after that. It was probably just a phrasing issue, or could be that you're so-last and I'm so-first, but it makes us sound as if we're stuck in this eternal, selfish rut: If this has no practical benefit for me, then I'm not interested. Whereas in my case, it's more like: If it has no practical benefit for ANYONE, then I'm not interested. I love politics, I love history, I can be VERY interested in abstract topics. But where I come in conflict with Ns relates most often to:

    1) Re: just about anything = "Why are you complaining about this when you have no intention of doing anything about it? Either fix it, or let me help you fix it, or else what's the point?"

    2) Re: an abstract topic = "We've talked about this already."
    Or = "I thought the point of the conversation was ______? Why are we talking about this other thing now?"
    Or = "Didn't you just argue the other side five minutes ago??"
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    N's are mean people. Lol
    Wow. The poster you are responding to is incredibly snarky to say the least.

    S's tend to prefer the concrete and the here and now and filter information through their senses.

    N's prefer the abstract, the theoretical, the possible, and the imaginative, and tend to filter information through their intuition.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I wholeheartedly agree with the bolded, but I don't necessarily agree with the direction the post went in after that. It was probably just a phrasing issue, or could be that you're so-last and I'm so-first, but it makes us sound as if we're stuck in this eternal, selfish rut: If this has no practical benefit for me, then I'm not interested. Whereas in my case, it's more like: If it has no practical benefit for ANYONE, then I'm not interested. I love politics, I love history, I can be VERY interested in abstract topics. But where I come in conflict with Ns relates most often to:

    1) Re: just about anything = "Why are you complaining about this when you have no intention of doing anything about it? Either fix it, or let me help you fix it, or else what's the point?"

    2) Re: an abstract topic = "We've talked about this already."
    Or = "I thought the point of the conversation was ______? Why are we talking about this other thing now?"
    Or = "Didn't you just argue the other side five minutes ago??"
    I think, given the ISFJ tendency towards caring for others and wanting to make people happy and comfortable, I don't know that I got the impression that the practical benefit had to be for the individual himself (although I realized the way I responded to that must have made it sound like it).


    1) seems to be a problem primarily for many women, particularly NF's. In fact, ironically, many times my ex-NF boyfriend and I would end up with communication problems because I would be taking an issue to him precisely for help coming up with solutions that I might not be able to think of on my own and he thought I just wanted emotional support. :-)

    2) As far as 2 goes, I can't count the number of times that I would be talking to again the aforesaid ex about some topic or other, and he would be annoyed that I was going over the same stuff (or so he thought). If he would have been paying attention, and not jumping to conclusions, I usually was adding a new idea, question, or theory to the existing mix. I obviously can't speak to that regarding your ex, but I know it always annoyed me when he would assume I wasn't adding anything new.

    As far as switching sides, it can be a great mental exercise to engage in. Also, N's usually are more focused on the evidence, rather than the reached conclusion, and thus will more readily switch positions based on superior evidence (at least I know this to be true with introverted intuitives).

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Netochka View Post
    Wow. The poster you are responding to is incredibly snarky to say the least.

    S's tend to prefer the concrete and the here and now and filter information through their senses.

    N's prefer the abstract, the theoretical, the possible, and the imaginative, and tend to filter information through their intuition.

    The point I am trying to make is that there are very few interests barring the divide between sensing and intuition. We simply go about their provocation differently, is all.

  7. #27
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I wholeheartedly agree with the bolded, but I don't necessarily agree with the direction the post went in after that. It was probably just a phrasing issue, or could be that you're so-last and I'm so-first, but it makes us sound as if we're stuck in this eternal, selfish rut: If this has no practical benefit for me, then I'm not interested. Whereas in my case, it's more like: If it has no practical benefit for ANYONE, then I'm not interested. I love politics, I love history, I can be VERY interested in abstract topics. But where I come in conflict with Ns relates most often to:

    1) Re: just about anything = "Why are you complaining about this when you have no intention of doing anything about it? Either fix it, or let me help you fix it, or else what's the point?"

    2) Re: an abstract topic = "We've talked about this already."
    Or = "I thought the point of the conversation was ______? Why are we talking about this other thing now?"
    Or = "Didn't you just argue the other side five minutes ago??"
    I would say, yeah, that's a phrasing thing as I didn't intend for it to come off like that. If I may rephrase: If it's not something of practical or useful value to me or to everyone involved in the situation, then I don't tend to really concentrate on it.

    Sorry for the confusion
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    I don't even know what "S stuff" is or "N stuff" is????
    I think a lot of Ns who have done too much reading about N-ness get this misperception... I know I did... in reality I don't think there's any stuff... I think it's more about form than content. About how and when certain topics are engaged.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Don't be! It's a(n indirect) compliment

    Does your ISFJ feel the same way about NF conversation, now that the two of you have been together for a while? If the two of you have NF friends, do you notice him interacting with them differently/better, since you sorted out your N/S communication issues?
    I wish I could answer this well but, we don't really have very many mutual NF friends that we interact with on a regular basis. What I can say is that he's always been good at talking to my INTP dad who tends to ramble on about his pet topics, and he got along easily with an INFP friend who was visiting from another country.

    Anyway, I thought he was a Ne dominant, at first, actually. So I think he started out with some native degree of N fluency.

    Quote Originally Posted by Netochka View Post
    Skylights-- It is good to know that it is possible for that aspect to level out, and for both parties to understand each other better. I also really like that you presented some good strategies for achieving that balance.

    I, too, find a certain amount of S conversation refreshing and grounding, and it is also interesting to see that my inferior function, Se, is improving a little the more time I spend around him. I am noticing little things in shows that I have watched many times that I have never noticed before, and am remembering some things without effort better (like where I set my keys down, for example).
    Yes! Me too! It's excellent.

    unless she thought that you would naturally include yours in response to hers and it would be a dialogue? In fact, that would be something that I would tend to assume, is that a mistake? Do I need to constantly draw him out? Will he not understand that I am naturally curious regarding his thoughts on any given subject?)
    I feel like this too. I think most people who are really into something are sharing it not just to hear themselves talk, but because they assume the other person will be interested, and usually they'd like nothing more than the other person's input on it.

    In truth I think this may be much more of a Fe thing than an S or SJ thing - the desire for more open prompting and formal question/response, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Netochka View Post
    But I tend to find a natural rapport with many N's that doesn't involve me or them constantly needing to reiterate for each other that we are interested in each other's thoughts regarding most subjects.

    Now I am curious if the other N's on the board find this as well?
    Quote Originally Posted by Netochka View Post
    I guess now my question is geared towards other N's--I know, wrong board for it, right? :-)--and if they have found this particular rapport with other N's where this understanding is implicit.
    I think people with Fi - TJs and FPs - tend to assume that it's each person's desire to speak only when they feel like they want to, and it's uncomfortable to be prompted to speak before one is ready to speak, so conversation generally ends up moving in an "I share, then you share" format.

    Whereas people with Fe - TPs and FJs - tend to assume that it's each person's responsibility to engage the other, and it's rude to be "spoken at", so they tend to prompt the other person, ask questions, seek follow-up, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    But where I come in conflict with Ns relates most often to:

    1) Re: just about anything = "Why are you complaining about this when you have no intention of doing anything about it? Either fix it, or let me help you fix it, or else what's the point?"
    FWIW, this drives me nuts too. It's really hard for me to just sit and listen and not begin formulating plans to fix things.

  9. #29
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Netochka View Post
    I have a few questions about interactions with SJ's, particularly ISFJ's, but I would be interested in hearing from all of you.

    Beyond the obvious things like family and daily life, what sorts of things do SJ's like to talk about? Being an N, I find that there are many things I am interested in discussing and thinking about which really confuse, bore, or completely perplex him.

    Also, for those of you who have dated or interacted with N's in meaningful relationships, what kinds of things have you done to try and understand and engage the N ways of thinking?

    And, also, what are the effects on you when you do? Does it leave you drained in any way?

    It seems to me right now, we spend most of our time on the S level, and I'm wondering how we can even up the balance in that regard and spend a little more time in the abstract, theoretical and imaginative planes without causing him too much hardship.

    Any help in this matter would be greatly appreciated.
    I asked her (ISFJ) what she likes to talk to me about and she said things like, "That's a very broad question" "That's a weird question" "I don't know" "It's not like there are any limits or anything"

    She said daily and family life are definitely the most interesting things for her to talk about. She is not so much interested in theoretical conversations. Discussions are more on the "S" plane as you describe. On the N plane, I will throw my ideas/insights out there and ask her for her opinion. That often starts an interesting discussion. I will make some observation about the environment that we're in. I do that a lot. She is very practical. That is something you guys have in common so you can use that. So you can talk about a particular problem and ways that you can solve it. You can also talk about the future and ask for his ideas and opinions. I tend to be very interested in her opinions on things because she has a dramatically different and wise perspective. These are just offhand thoughts. I have never really considered the question much. It is an interesting question though. I'll think about it.

    I'm never drained after discussions. We can sometimes talk for hours and communication isn't really a big problem.

    Edit: I used to talk about frustrations I had at work. She is a patient and empathetic listener. I think ISFJs like doing that sort of thing. Since ISFJs have very strong interpersonal skills, they can have a helpful perspective for you on what others might be thinking or how you can handle something.

    However, if you drone on and on, like an ENFP might do, they will pretend to listen, with the "um-hm's" and all but they will actually be somewhere else, most likely thinking about things on the to do list. I think ENFPs have this problem in general. Because they are so perceptive, they experience a lot of rejection in life in that way.

    Also, if you get into one of those inferior episodes with the obsessive thinking, they don't like that at all. It's probably the single biggest thing to work on.

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  10. #30
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Netochka View Post
    Wow. The poster you are responding to is incredibly snarky to say the least.
    I think he was just making a point in a funny way, not completely serious.

    S's tend to prefer the concrete and the here and now and filter information through their senses.

    N's prefer the abstract, the theoretical, the possible, and the imaginative, and tend to filter information through their intuition.
    Yeah but it's just a preference, that doesn't mean S and N are incapable of doing the opposite. If you want to discuss more N stuff, maybe just bring these topics up. Think of it like teaching a kindergarten class. You would try to make the concepts you're teaching the kids as interesting to them as you can make them, which takes work but they do want to learn and like it when they do. The S has the same obligation to you, the N, when talking about "S stuff". I think a good start would be to talk to your S about wanting to intermix these topics of interest that you have in your conversations with him. Don't be afraid.

    And, for the record, I find it ESSENTIAL to talk about imaginative things within a relationship, even though I am an S and am not good at doing that, so some of us do welcome it. I would hate to be in a relationship where we didn't do this. I'm not as interested in theory though (and that's a problem that NT's have with me ).

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