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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    My point exactly -- which is why I defined "pointless" in my post, and put it in quotations. (Must not have been clear...)

    Glad it helped!

    ^ IMO this may have less to do with type and more to do with maturity level/experience/practice*. I used to talk at people. A lot. But then, especially when you hang out with people who are more withdrawn, or when you want to get to know people who are more withdrawn, you learn to ask questions. That's all it takes! You really can't presume that your desire to hear another opinion is implied.

    *Much like active listening: something you have to learn, over time.
    Apologies. I have most of my free time during the last two days trying to solve a technology issue (now solved) and having a major headache to boot. Obviously I did not read as closely as I should have.


    Though, I do take great pains to always ask him what he is thinking and to draw him out on issues, when I am with other N's, it seems like there is this implicit understanding that we are both curious about each other's viewpoint and so if we raise an issue or discussion point, the other naturally contributes their own without having to be prompted and it becomes a natural exchange where both are discussing the other's viewpoints and nobody thinks or feels that they are being pontificated to.

    One thing though, is that I do watch for body language signs of boredom or discomfort and navigate around those, and usually make some sort of joke about getting off the soap box or whatever, and move the conversation over to the other person.

    But I tend to find a natural rapport with many N's that doesn't involve me or them constantly needing to reiterate for each other that we are interested in each other's thoughts regarding most subjects.

    Now I am curious if the other N's on the board find this as well?

  2. #12
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    I make a big list of past comparisons with old dates and then line the new one up against a wall where a projector is showing a dating timeline.

    If he/she doesn't shape up....SHE/HE IS OUTTA HERE! Then I throw a sponge at them and they get dunked....come to think of it this was probably at a fairground...that was going on in my head.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Netochka View Post
    EJCC-- The thing that might surprise you about NT's, is that we greatly dislike pointless conversation as well. I think the issue is less that we enjoy pointless conversation, and more that S and N have widely disparate views of what constitutes "pointless." However, you do give a very good window into the SJ mind.

    Turn off your mind relax and float down stream
    It is not dying, it is not dying

    Lay down all thoughts, surrender to the void,
    It is shining, it is shining

    Yet you may see the meaning of within
    It is being, it is being



    Sensors aren't so bad, civilizations have been trying to reach our status for generations.

    I suggest exploring his mind with intent of reconciliation between your two existences. If you cannot intellectually relate...

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    Sensors aren't so bad, civilizations have been trying to reach our status for generations.

    I suggest exploring his mind with intent of reconciliation between your two existences. If you cannot intellectually relate...
    It's kind of like the 2 worlds theory, where the the real world presents us with the building blocks and the working models of physical processes by which higher metaphysical realities can be manifested and comprehended.

    In simple terms, sensors give the intuitives the facts for the construction of their own theories.

  5. #15
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    I make a big list of past comparisons with old dates and then line the new one up against a wall where a projector is showing a dating timeline.

    If he/she doesn't shape up....SHE/HE IS OUTTA HERE! Then I throw a sponge at them and they get dunked....come to think of it this was probably at a fairground...that was going on in my head.
    Reminds me of "The American President":
    Lewis Rothschild: I tell any girl I'm going out with to assume that all plans are soft until she receives confirmation from me thirty minutes beforehand.
    Robin McCall: And they find this romantic?
    Lewis Rothschild: Well, I say it with a great deal of charm.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poimandres View Post
    It's kind of like the 2 worlds theory, where the the real world presents us with the building blocks and the working models of physical processes by which higher metaphysical realities can be manifested and comprehended.

    In simple terms, sensors give the intuitives the facts for the construction of their own theories.

    "The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'"

    -Isaac Asimov


    The Sensor/Intuitor Duality



    :P

  7. #17
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Netochka View Post
    Though, I do take great pains to always ask him what he is thinking and to draw him out on issues, when I am with other N's, it seems like there is this implicit understanding that we are both curious about each other's viewpoint and so if we raise an issue or discussion point, the other naturally contributes their own without having to be prompted and it becomes a natural exchange where both are discussing the other's viewpoints and nobody thinks or feels that they are being pontificated to.

    One thing though, is that I do watch for body language signs of boredom or discomfort and navigate around those, and usually make some sort of joke about getting off the soap box or whatever, and move the conversation over to the other person.

    But I tend to find a natural rapport with many N's that doesn't involve me or them constantly needing to reiterate for each other that we are interested in each other's thoughts regarding most subjects.

    Now I am curious if the other N's on the board find this as well?
    Gawd, it's scary how much you sound like my ex

    This I think is a flawed perception on your part and it's something my ex did that drove me nuts.

    It's not that ISFJs (and probably SJs as a whole to a larger extent) aren't curious about things, it's just that we tend to direct our curiosity toward things of practical value (or maybe that's just me). The only time I start to get into really abstract stuff is when said stuff is directly impacting my life in someway. As EJCC pointed out, it has to be something useful to us to feel like talking about it. This means that we DO have strong opinions about certain topics but unless we can find some valid reason to bring it up, we may just not feel like we really need to talk about it.

    For example, I have a very strong opinion religion. Does this mean I go about talking about it all the time? Not at all, and in fact I barely ever talk about it. Why is that you might ask? I don't talk about it much because I don't need too. There isn't anyone trying to impress their faith on to me, my rights haven't been suspended because of my beliefs, and by and large the people around can't seem to be bothered to bring the topic up with me so I simply don't really discuss it.

    Sensors are a very practical, here-and-now bunch and our thoughts tend to gravitate toward all of that. I do think about other stuff at time but by and large other things consumates thoughts in my head.

    For example, by and large today I thought about the following

    1) Idiots I had to deal with at work, and why I felt they were wrong
    2) How angry I am about my breakup with my ex many months ago, my concern that I'm still brooding over it even after all this time, and pondering the real reason I still feel so much anger and what I can do with it
    3) How I'm going to maintain my protein and caloric intake for the purposes my working out/personal trainer given how goofed up m schedule got today
    4) Why I really like Star Trek (I watched an episode of TNG on my lunch break and it brought up a lot of nostalgic feelings. I love being an Si-dom )
    5) Things I want to do when I get home, goals I want to achieve in World of Warcraft over the weekend
    6) As a result of this thread, about my ex-g/f and how her and I interacted with one another

    See politics/science/religion/philosophy anywhere in there? No and you know why? Because I didn't need it.

    I think you might need to realize that he's not going to be the naturally curious thinker that you are. That's not a bad thing, it's just a way that he's different. But I think you're going to need to evaluate how important this is to you in a partner.
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

  8. #18
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    So are you saying that I shouldn't share my thoughts with him unless they have a definite and useful point to him?

    I am fine with the premise that I will need to be sure that I consistently reiterate my interest in his positions on things and being sure that we are engaging in dialogue and not mutual monologues.

    I guess now my question is geared towards other N's--I know, wrong board for it, right? :-)--and if they have found this particular rapport with other N's where this understanding is implicit.

  9. #19
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Netochka View Post
    So are you saying that I shouldn't share my thoughts with him unless they have a definite and useful point to him?

    I am fine with the premise that I will need to be sure that I consistently reiterate my interest in his positions on things and being sure that we are engaging in dialogue and not mutual monologues.

    I guess now my question is geared towards other N's--I know, wrong board for it, right? :-)--and if they have found this particular rapport with other N's where this understanding is implicit.
    I would suggest nothing of the sort! For all the flaws of my former relationship, I did enjoy my INxx's perspective. I found it incredibly refreshing and interesting and it actually bothered me a lot that I couldn't reciprocate her interest in some topics.

    What I'm saying is...don't mistake your ISFJs silence or disinterest in a topic as a lack of curiosity, merely that his interest and focus are on more practical, immediate things.

    I hope I'm not coming off as patronizing or condescending. I find you INTJ's to be incredibly fascinating individuals and I truly do hope you guys can iron things out. I told you what I told you as I felt it might be helpful to know where it. Is he might be coming from as he goes about his day.

    That...and there is a very good chance I'm just bitter and angry and that might be coloring my responses, so take them with a grain of salt
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

  10. #20
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    I don't even know what "S stuff" is or "N stuff" is????

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