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  1. #21
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    You want to gain respect and understanding? How can we ask from others what we can't do ourselves?
    You'll not gain them by asking for them. That is not the way they are earned, they cannot be pleaded for. If you asked them to do that they'll probably tell you what to do so they can respect you, and I'm almost positive what they'll ask will be contrary to your own convictions.The thing you need to do is to find out what is that you want to do and persist in doing it.
    When people disapprove of someone's way of living generally they do so because they take at as a critique to their way of doing things, so you must show them that just because you do things differently doesn't mean you judge them or you don't respect them. Best advice I can give you is that things change with time and generally people become more accepting of others differences, so only thing you should do is be persistent in doing what you want and believe is right for you, a quote comes to mind that you might find useful:"selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live". Yup, that's all I've got, hope it was helpful

  2. #22
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daenera View Post
    When people disapprove of someone's way of living generally they do so because they take at as a critique to their way of doing things, so you must show them that just because you do things differently doesn't mean you judge them or you don't respect them. Best advice I can give you is that things change with time and generally people become more accepting of others differences
    Sounds good. And yes, time can wear down stubborn SJs where good arguments cannot. Not persistence, though, just time for sinking in.

    And it takes two to meet halfway, unfortunately. So you and they would both have to want to do so.
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDJ View Post
    My sister is ISFJ, my mom is ESTJ. I annoy the hell out of them, what might I do to stop frustrating them? Now can I be more like them? Is it possible for them to appreciate me, or will I always be the oddball black sheep?

    (((P.s. I am asking these questions in the hopes of managing my interactions with them so as to garner a tad bit more respect and understanding. Any suggestions would help)))
    Maybe they need to adjust to you. They should respect your difference, as you should theirs. Maybe you should be annoyed by them. Maybe you're right and they're wrong. I also am an INFP. Honestly, I am easily annoyed by SJ's. But I'm also annoyed by other NF's whose ideals are different than mine. My girlfriend is an ENFP, and our ideals occasionally clash. I guess I'm just easily annoyed in general.

    Anyways, just be yourself. But also recognize your love for them and that some of their suggestions/input may have value. Accept the fact that you will annoy them. Who cares? Not everyone's the same and there's beauty in that. Recognize when you are being annoyed and recognized when you are being annoying. Recognize it, then let it go.There's a reason we're not all one personality type. Everyone has their unique "function."

    Peace.

  4. #24
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    @KDJ:

    As a 45yo INFP with an ESTJ husband, ISTJ father, ISFJ mother, ESFJ mother-in-law and ISTJ sister-in-law I think I hear what you are saying. As you can imagine in my SJ-heavy world, there's a general discomfort with and distrust of emotions in my family. It's those emotions ... what to do? How to deal?

    #1 for you: Feel your emotions. Express them. You have to be YOU. For years and years I suppressed mine ... that ultimately led only to health challenges and general unhappiness. Will that make other people uncomfortable at times? Yes. Get a little comfortable with the concept that you are not responsible for what other people think and feel. Of course you are sensitive and care deeply about others. But ultimately, you are responsible only for you. Not how people react to you.

    #2: Education - get them to do the MBTI. Get them interested in the topic. Might be easier with the ISFJ to start. ESTJ attention spans are more "get-to-the-point". Position it as "how to deal with difficult people" if you have to (but don't you dare put yourself in that category!). My husband thought it was psycho-babble until he really looked at it and started to recognize the different kinds of wiring people come with. That kind of information has practical purpose, is useful, and that was appealing. Eh, we don't talk about it for more than 10 minutes at a time mind you, but he's more open to the concepts of it now.

    #3: PLEASE stop thinking of yourself as annoying. You have as valid a viewpoint as anyone else. Don't you dare adopt that kind of thinking about yourself, as the things we tell ourselves affect our interactions with others. See yourself instead as a truth-seeker, you are creative and emotional, you are sensitive and caring and strong and daring. Start recognizing that the "black sheep" is just software that got written years and years ago in your head. You can update that software to reflect your own emotional identity now, as an adult.

    #4: find an outlet for your creative / sensitive passions: something tangible in the "real world". Sometimes Fi can only be appreciated though the nuances. Create them. Feed them. Feel them. Sing them. Paint them. Write them. It will help you feel less like you have to convince someone else of your worth. You can see it for yourself and appreciate yourself.

    More to come from me, but that's a good start anyways ....


    NOW, special for you: I read your OP to my husband. Here is his ESTJ reply to you:

    Your sister and mom care, but they don't want to talk about it. Talking about it makes it worse for them. Not that they shouldn't say they are sorry if they have hurt you, but they're only going to try to say why they're right. (Then he gave this analogy to explain further) - When you are trying to train someone, and they don't get it - they take the proficiency test after receiving training and don't perform the task correctly - we want to blame the person who received the training, that they're stupid and didn't get it because we see our training as complete and adequate. The "Train the Trainer" paradigm tells us that the trainer needs to adapt to the person they are working with, that they are teaching, and if they don't "get it" the teaching was insufficient and we need to adapt what we do to meet everyone's needs, not our need to train a certain way. That's what your sister and mother need to do. Realize that they are not meeting your needs. They need to revisit what they do to get the best result for everyone.

    Hope that helps! And welcome to the forum!
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  5. #25
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    I've been meaning to reply to this thread for a bit, but have been to busy to give a reply the time it deserves, so you are getting this instead.


    I, like PeaceBaby, grew up in an SJ-heavy environment, and it seems to me you are (perhaps) being too hard on yourself.

    I think as an INFP living with other types, there is an inherent asymmetry in interactions. INFPs tend to be able to see the value in (most) other perspectives, and are able to listen deeply to others and try to see things through the eyes of other. We tend to be able to try on the lenses of another without being threatened—even if we don't really agree (as long as a core value isn't crossed).

    This asymmetry can create a real feeling of injustice when younger, because you can tell that others (like your parents) aren't giving your perspective, ideas, and feelings the same attention, respect, and reflection you tend to give others. For many INFPs, opinions and feelings are worth considering (at least initially) because they come from a personal life experience which no one else can know fully.

    Te, conversely, is all about efficiency and applying pragmatic metrics and rules. It's partially about mental efficiency, and not expending undo effort (including mental effort) on "flights of fancy." Also, to STJs, in particular, real-world experience is the currency that buys attention, and, as a younger person, you have none to spend.


    With Fe, too, an INFP can also be discounted. We are too idiosyncratic, to inconsistent, and to dismissive of social rituals that don't personally resonate. Hence, we may be charming (if quirky) one day for going far beyond what social convention and relationship status indicate (because we are genuinely motivated), and then the next day have irredeemably offended for discounting what others say one "should" do. Over time, NFPs tends to build up bad credit with FJs for being inconsistent and "undependable" (although we tend to deliver when we know it is important to others).

    Our opinions can also be discounted by TPs, who tend to stop listening at the first logical error or imprecision.


    Until we INFPs have learned to present things logically using precise language—to speak the language of thinking types—we do tend to live in a world where we continually go the extra mile to very little credit. That's not to laud INFPs as being angelic or perfect (we do have our downsides), but if you feel like you listen more deeply and give people more attention and credit than they give you (especially in your immediate family), you may not be wrong.

    It's been amusing as I grow up that my ESTJ dad (an extreme case, admittedly) takes my opinions MUCH more seriously now (at 44) than he did when I was younger. Because I've "proven" myself in the world and draw from "experience," he takes much more seriously opinions based on exactly the same thought processes and feelings that I used when I was younger. Admittedly, I've gotten better at presenting things in a more palatable way, but what goes on internally isn't vastly different.

    So, I guess I'd try to counter-balance your original post by saying that you should give yourself a bit more credit. You no doubt have limitations and annoying behaviors, but it's also true that you are far more equipped to see the strengths of others than they are to see your strengths.

    From Nurture by Nature (granted, most of these points are more applicable to younger INFPs, but I still think they are good to hear even as someone older... just to get a feel for what INFP nurturing would look like)

    • Provide them with as many books as possible; read to them constantly.[when younger]
    • Take them to the library regularly; get them their own library card as early as possible. [maybe dated]
    • Expose them to, and encourage their interests in, cultural arts.
    • Speak softly—use a gentle voice and maintain physical and eye contact when you correct misbehavior.
    • Apologize quickly and sincerely if you lose your temper or raise your voice.
    • Encourage them to talk about their ideas; listen quietly and give them your undivided attention.
    • Respect the legitimacy of their imaginary life.
    • Encourage them to express their feelings in words or in drawings; listen and carefully rephrase their feelings to help them clarify them.
    • Allow them to watch from the sidelines as long as they need before joining in, and give them plenty of time to play alone or simply daydream.
    • Respect the intensity of their feelings.
    • Support their intellectual curiosity and artistic expression.
    • Help them find ways to keep themselves organized and on time; model how to set and meet goals.
    • Appeal to their feelings and values in times of conflict or disagreement.
    • Get their ideas and input on alternative ways to solve problems; give them plenty of advance notice about changes that affect them personally.
    • Help them make decisions by explaining that few choices are irrevocable.


    I'd say, on the converse side, that's it's really, REALLY in an INFP's benefit to learn self-discipline and how to meet deadlines and schedules. In much of life, you have to do things when you don't really feel like it, and in many cases no one may care about the validity of your personal perspective. It does suck, but that is how much of the world is (especially the world of business and jobs). There are practical benefits when one is forced to learn such things young.

  6. #26
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    If you have questions about what to "Do" I would suggest asking an ESTP as they are called the Doers. But in my opinion the problem is right here in what you stated yourself "a tad bit more respect and understanding" now what is that and how might one obtain it? It does not even exist thereby all your actions to obtain it are futilely pointless. It is a manner of presentation or perspective of understanding I suppose, but it entirely relies upon one's self.

    You should realize if such things as circular logic exist then would not circular emotions exist such as depression or other such mechanisms? Emotional self gratification and coping could be lacking and thereby place undo burden upon others creating a danger that of often times one's own integrity is being misunderstood. What is happening here is an intangible object is being measured intangibly and remeasured again and again applied to other objects and eventually lost within the subconscious mind. I think it has to do with object relational theory as discussed within psychoanalytical theory by Sigmund Freud.

    INFP are so darn complicated I love trying to figure out what is being spoken about. Remind me so much of INTP in how you see the world around one self. Like come here come here you got to see this! And no one outside yourself ever really gets it. My own approach is to expand my vocabulary when I am in distasteful situations.
    Mastery is its own reward.

  7. #27
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    Tell them they piss you off because you're not allowed to be yourself around them ever. Grit your teeth until you're moved the fuck out. Then when you're moved out, friend your parents on facebook, and post cursewords and pornographic images all over your wall then constantly make posts about how free you feel now that you're moved out. Then get your ESFJ 8 uncle to talk at them about how awesome a kid you actually are and why they should be proud. Then tell them they're worthless parents until they start supporting your lifestyle.

    Should work for you too.
    I would probably do something like this.

    Actually, I'd probably just tell them they suck and leave/move out asap.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dudesowin View Post
    If you have questions about what to "Do" I would suggest asking an ESTP as they are called the Doers. But in my opinion the problem is right here in what you stated yourself "a tad bit more respect and understanding" now what is that and how might one obtain it? It does not even exist thereby all your actions to obtain it are futilely pointless. It is a manner of presentation or perspective of understanding I suppose, but it entirely relies upon one's self.

    You should realize if such things as circular logic exist then would not circular emotions exist such as depression or other such mechanisms? Emotional self gratification and coping could be lacking and thereby place undo burden upon others creating a danger that of often times one's own integrity is being misunderstood. What is happening here is an intangible object is being measured intangibly and remeasured again and again applied to other objects and eventually lost within the subconscious mind. I think it has to do with object relational theory as discussed within psychoanalytical theory by Sigmund Freud.

    INFP are so darn complicated I love trying to figure out what is being spoken about. Remind me so much of INTP in how you see the world around one self. Like come here come here you got to see this! And no one outside yourself ever really gets it. My own approach is to expand my vocabulary when I am in distasteful situations.
    I'm stealing the bolded

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDJ View Post
    As I attempt to answer this question, I'm finding it difficult to elaborate in some way that doesn't involve any long and drawn out explanation of things. For the quick and dirty cliff notes version. It seems I repeatedly annoy them whenever the occasion arrises that I need to express how I feel. If there is a misunderstanding or a poorly handled situation that I found very hurtful I do make a point of bringing it up. [...]
    I suspect there are boundary issues at the core of this. But it’s tough to say without a specific example or two of what’s being discussed between KDJ and her mother and sister when these problems crop up. IOW, when the mother and sister start butting in, is KDJ talking about something random that happened at work or in traffic on the way home? Is she talking about problems with her husband and kids at home? Is she talking about problems she is having with her mother and sister themselves?

    I’m not asking for a blow-by-blow. Just an indication of the nature of the subjects being discussed when the mother and sister start butting in with their own interpretations. And maybe an indication of whether the mother and sister are otherwise generally sensible people or whether they are raving nutcases in general...

    I know it’s been about a month since KDJ responded to this thread, but I figured I would ask just in case she’s still around.

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