[SJ] Why is the SJ Guardhouse so empty all the time compared to the others?

[Rasofy]

If the discomfort you're describing is social discomfort, then I agree with you. But if it's cognitive, then I disagree.

They are kinda interconnected, ime.

To be fair, I don't know what a "normal" SJ opinion on this would be. But I honestly don't feel a huge separation between myself as an SJ, and the Ns on this forum. I've never seen an SJ on this forum emphasize those differences either.

I figured, but it's not like you guys are the norm.

The ones who are hung up on it are mostly the Ns, who come here to get away from SJs. So the dynamic I've experienced has been: Oblivious, well-meaning forum SJs, and extremely resentful and victimized (or victim-complexed) Ns.

Heh, true.

Which isn't to say that being motivated to join forums like these based on SJ-fatigue is a bad thing. I have plenty of forum friends who have that mentality, and I don't think any less of them for it. (Though I'm confused at why they're friends with me, if they're really that incompatible with them... but I digress.)

Fwiw, you seem to have a pretty good Ne usage, so the N/S dichotomy wouldn't make much difference.

And it's true that, as an SJ, I avoid forums like INTJf and INTPc because of all the Ns, and me being in the minority. But it's not because of communication problems. Hell, most of my friends are Ns, so I'm generally used to you guys.* No, instead, it's because their group dynamic is so focused on Not Being A Sensor, and on seeing themselves as unique and rare and special, that there's no way they'd be friendly towards an SJ coming in. It'd be like a girl waltzing into a treehouse that says "No Girls Allowed" on the outside, and going "Hey guys, can I hang out with you and talk about boy stuff? I know a lot about it!"

Yep, elitism can be a big concern on these forums. The intpforum (not intpc) seems to be pretty chill though.

So, obviously I wouldn't ever say that I'm "used to being in the majority everywhere", because, like I said, most of my friends are Ns. The forum demographics are very similar, percentage-wise, to my real life social environment. But maybe that's because I'm not in the SJ majority. Maybe the sorts of SJs who hate this kind of theoretical discussion, are more in the norm.

/rambling

Exactly. See, I use the word ''tend'' in order not to deal with the exceptions.

*I honestly understand you all better than I understand SPs. Even they're supposedly my best match, I don't think I've had a healthy IRL acquaintance-ship, let alone friendship, with an SFP, in my entire life.

Interesting!

 

[EJCC]

They are kinda interconnected, ime.

Kinda. But only kinda.

Here's the thing. I dunno if you read this thread, but it proves pretty well that SJs generally don't look for people who think like them, as much as they look for people with similar interests, and then they see how things flow after that. So, when asked similar questions to the OP's question, I tend to say that there aren't many SJs on the forum because they generally just aren't as interested in in-depth discussions about personality typology. They're all over the internet, just like Ns, but they tend to flock to different sorts of forums.

So, that's what I meant, when I emphasized the N-uniqueness mentality as being much more of a thing, than a supposed SJ need to be part of the majority. SJs like to talk about things they're interested in, with other people who are interested in them, and as long as the discussion is good, the forum serves a practical need, and the SJ makes friends, then what else matters?

I figured, but it's not like you guys are the norm.

And here's where we run into my eternal problem when talking about "normal" SJs.

1) As far as I can tell, I don't know any "normal" SJs. That is, if you're defining "normal" SJs as being of average intelligence and unskilled with theoretical conversation, because I think my SJ friends are pretty smart, and hell, we're all in academia at the moment, so we have to be good at theoretical discussion, even if we don't enjoy it.
2) I seek out people who I'm interested in and who I like -- and by contrast, if I dislike people, or if I'm not interested in them, then I put them out of my mind and/or ignore them.

So, does it necessarily follow that I'm not friends with SJs because I find them rude or uninteresting? Does it follow that my opinion on SJs is irrelevant because I'm "more Ne than average"? Does it follow that because I'm not "normal", I wouldn't generally befriend "normal" people?

I'd actually love to hear from other SJs on this. [MENTION=8485]tinker683[/MENTION]? [MENTION=15167]Stephen[/MENTION]? [MENTION=4398]Giggly[/MENTION]? [MENTION=15246]SD45T-2[/MENTION]? Thoughts on the idea that "normal" SJs are not the sort who would want to be here? Or thoughts on how you would approach speaking for "normal" SJs on the forum? How would you folks define a "normal" SJ, anyway, and would you consider yourself one of them?

Yep, elitism can be a big concern on these forums. The intpforum (not intpc) seems to be pretty chill though.

I've never been there, actually. Pros/cons, vs. INTPc and here?

Exactly. See, I use the word ''tend'' in order not to deal with the exceptions.

Actually, you said "probably tend", which is even better!

Interesting!

It's weird. I just don't "get" them, a lot of the time. Especially ESFPs. I generally feel confused, uptight, and/or annoyed, around ESFPs. My ENFP BFF has an ESFP 3w4 younger sister, and I can't even begin to understand her. The whole entertainment/image thing...

 

[Giggly]

[MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION], yeah I know some "normal" SJ's who would never be into typology let alone post on message boards. They blow up facebook and youtube though.

 

[SD45T-2]

Thoughts on the idea that "normal" SJs are not the sort who would want to be here? Or thoughts on how you would approach speaking for "normal" SJs on the forum? How would you folks define a "normal" SJ, anyway, and would you consider yourself one of them?

I have no idea how normal I am.

 

[skylights]

Most of the SJs I know and have talked to typology about are interested in it for a little bit and then go attend to other things they're interested in. They're just generally practical people, and don't have a ton of interest in draining time on a forum that can get pretty theoretical and pretty N-whiny. As far as I understand, it's just that this could be an unsatisfying use of time. The forum can be pretty hit-or-miss. I've spoken with my ESFJ 2w1 mom about it - for her, it's less appealing because there's no hands-on contact, no face-to-face communication, so much randomness to sort through, and so little direct application. An ISFJ friend acknowledges the theoretical value of typology but dislikes so much people-categorization, finds it too vulnerable to pigeonholing and assumption (no lack of truth in that). The SJs I know are just more out in the tangible world in general, going places, meeting people, doing things.

As a side note, I really, really don't think there's this grand N-S disparity, nor overabundance of Ss or SJs, that is touted in some literature. @EJCC's remark about having more N friends made that occur to me - EJCC, I understand what you mean about SPs. I feel like I understand and communicate with SJs better than with NTs much of the time. It seems counterintuitive (ha... ha...) given that I'm so Ne, minus maybe that my mom's FeSiNe and my dad TiNeSi so our shared language has always been dominantly Ne/Si.

 

[Rasofy]

Here's the thing. I dunno if you read this thread, but it proves pretty well that SJs generally don't look for people who think like them, as much as they look for people with similar interests, and then they see how things flow after that.

Makes sense.

So, when asked similar questions to the OP's question, I tend to say that there aren't many SJs on the forum because they generally just aren't as interested in in-depth discussions about personality typology. They're all over the internet, just like Ns, but they tend to flock to different sorts of forums.

That would be the primary factor.

So, that's what I meant, when I emphasized the N-uniqueness mentality as being much more of a thing, than a supposed SJ need to be part of the majority. SJs like to talk about things they're interested in, with other people who are interested in them, and as long as the discussion is good, the forum serves a practical need, and the SJ makes friends, then what else matters?

Like I mentioned on one of the recurrent intuitive vs sensors debate, I believe that 1) N-heavy conversations (which are kinda fomented here) aren't intellectually stimulant to most sensors and 2) sensors tend to have a different sense of humor than intuitives. Those factors tend to count.

And here's where we run into my eternal problem when talking about "normal" SJs.

1) As far as I can tell, I don't know any "normal" SJs. That is, if you're defining "normal" SJs as being of average intelligence and unskilled with theoretical conversation, because I think my SJ friends are pretty smart, and hell, we're all in academia at the moment, so we have to be good at theoretical discussion, even if we don't enjoy it.

I don't doubt the SJ capabilities on theoretical discussions; the problem is most of them don't seem to find them interesting enough to make a hobby out of it. They seem to just suck it up in order to get good grades and jobs.

2) I seek out people who I'm interested in and who I like -- and by contrast, if I dislike people, or if I'm not interested in them, then I put them out of my mind and/or ignore them.

Wow, me too! We have so much in common!

Hehe, I'm trolling.

So, does it necessarily follow that I'm not friends with SJs because I find them rude or uninteresting?

No, not necessarily.

Does it follow that my opinion on SJs is irrelevant because I'm "more Ne than average"?

Not necessarily.

Does it follow that because I'm not "normal", I wouldn't generally befriend "normal" people?

Not necessarily. LOL

I've never been there, actually. Pros/cons, vs. INTPc and here?

intpforum has a pretty intellectual philosophy and religion/spirituality subforum, and I find all the "what would you do if <insert event that's never gonna happen> happened?" threads hilarious. intjforum is far more practical, and their relationship subforum is pretty solid.

Actually, you said "probably tend", which is even better!

 

[The Iron Giant]

Thoughts on the idea that "normal" SJs are not the sort who would want to be here? Or thoughts on how you would approach speaking for "normal" SJs on the forum? How would you folks define a "normal" SJ, anyway, and would you consider yourself one of them?

I hate Keirsey. It's crap. SJs are all conscious Si users. When I'm speaking for SJs, I'm speaking from the perspective of someone who uses that function, and what that means. I try to keep anything else out of it, or couch it under "can't speak for others, but this is how I am."

I consider myself normal in the sense that I'm sure there are lots of other ISTJs like me. The problem is that many people read a type description and then conform themselves to it, or at least try to online. I think I fit the real world exemplar of an ISTJ more closely than the typology books, with some modifications from self awareness and lots of work toward personal growth.

 

[EJCC]

Like I mentioned on one of the recurrent intuitive vs sensors debate, I believe that 1) N-heavy conversations (which are kinda fomented here) aren't intellectually stimulant to most sensors and 2) sensors tend to have a different sense of humor than intuitives. Those factors tend to count.

I don't really believe in this divide. I think it has a lot more to do with function usage than the blanket N/S categorization. (In other words: I really, really agree with [MENTION=10496]skylights[/MENTION] .)

Wow, me too! We have so much in common!

Hehe, I'm trolling.

I know it sounds super obvious to us, because we DO have that in common, but I know a whole lot of people who have difficulty ignoring people they don't like, or people who don't like them. For example: I have a running debate/in-joke/conversation topic with my INTJ friend, about the typical student at our university. She absolutely hates those typical people, always sees them around campus, points them out to me, rants to me about how entitled, arrogant, and ignorant they are. Those people annoy me too, but I tend to push them out of my mind, so I can focus my attention on the cool people in my life. (My INTJ friend is either incapable of doing that, or chooses not to.)

their relationship subforum is pretty solid.

I find this very surprising!

I hate Keirsey. It's crap. SJs are all conscious Si users. When I'm speaking for SJs, I'm speaking from the perspective of someone who uses that function, and what that means. I try to keep anything else out of it, or couch it under "can't speak for others, but this is how I am."

I consider myself normal in the sense that I'm sure there are lots of other ISTJs like me. The problem is that many people read a type description and then conform themselves to it, or at least try to online. I think I fit the real world exemplar of an ISTJ more closely than the typology books, with some modifications from self awareness and lots of work toward personal growth.

This is a really good way to think about it. I've been presuming the same thing about myself, i.e. "This is what an ESTJ 1w2/1-7-3 who is well-adjusted looks like", but I tend to get a LOT of forum comments like "You're more well-adjusted than the average ESTJ", or "You use more Ne than the average ESTJ". It feels very dismissive, but I can't counter with any ESTJ examples except myself and people other forum members know, who I've never met.
(Also: I hate Keirsey, too. )