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  1. #81
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I wonder if this is the biggest thing that leads to the misunderstandings. I have thought this before.

    In either case on the topic of the thread, this difference of Fi as dominant (INFP) vs Fe as auxiliary (for the ISFJ) is a huge difference between the two
    Very true. Fi as leader and Fe as helper. Fi as the point and Fe as helping get to the point. In some ways ENFP-ISFJ exchange might be a little easier because both of us pull in our F processes to assist us in gathering information, when what we love most is the nitty-gritty of the information. With ISFJ-INFP I think it becomes more about both taking in, but ISFJ experientially and INFP emotionally. Conjecture on my end is that ISFJ and INFP will tend to enjoy similar sorts of experiences but will take them in very differently.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tabula View Post
    I'm sorry for butting in here. This thread is so interesting and helpful for me. *takes notes*

    Yeeeessss.

    This has been one of the two causes (ahem, the one which I'm to blame for) of every major misunderstanding had between my INFP partner and myself. You put it so much more concisely than I've been able to. I almost want to show him your post now.

    Sorry. Carry on.

    eta: dammit. I swear I didn't see highlander's post before writing this.
    Please feel welcome to butt in!! I am too, and I love to hear from more ISFJs! Thank you for your compliment, and I agree that it is one of our misunderstandings, too. I really have to work on thinking about what my "message" is when I say something, and not just what the content of what I'm saying is. Asking myself why I would say something like that, and how it will come across to him. It's made me so much more aware of how I must be coming off to others IRL. It's challenging, though, to feel that sense of responsibility for all speech/actions! It becomes a whole different world through J eyes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    @skylights I just want to say that you are so lovely, fair and understanding and your ISFJ is really lucky to have you.
    Oh you are too sweet I think that you are lovely and kind and straightforward yourself, and whoever has/will have you is lucky too!

    I can agree to this and I'm not at all against patience with your partner. What I, as the Fe-user, would request is that the Fi-user equally understand is that we're doing the best we can with the information you're giving us information that's faulty or confusing then I would humbly ask you guys to be patient with us
    It works both ways.

    That sounds incredibly cute
    Hehe thank you

    If I may make a suggestion: Try describing a scenario in which what you're thinking or feeling about plays out in a real life situation. That could help place your thoughts and feelings in some sort of context.
    Oh, thank you so much! I have never thought of doing that. He loves examples. I will definitely try that next time!!

    I think this is ESPECIALLY worth noting and also I personally feel you may have just bridged the Fi-Fe divide [...] Well done dear
    Well thank you so much!! Only with your and other Fe users' help, so well done for you, too!!

    This is what I mean by confusing actions. To you Fi-users your methods expression may be disconnected some some sort of coherent meaning but when we read it, we're trying to assign a pattern to it and...the results aren't always pretty.
    Yes, absolutely. And let me pull in what you said to highlander, and respond, because I think there is a HUGE point here about the difference in PiJe and PeJi that really creates misunderstanding -

    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    That very well may be true...but I simply fail to understand why that's somehow my problem. Again, I will do my best to accommodate them and try to work with whatever information they can give me, but if I'm not giving them what they want, there is only so much I am willing to take responsibility for but I would ask them to concede that if they themselves don't know how to express this in way that is, as you put it, "easy or obvious for others to understand" then there is truly only so much I can do. [...] I really love this one-sided special treatment that you almost seem to be implying that Fi-users should get.
    With no offense meant at all, tinker, I think that a minor part of the problem is that the collective of Fe users who do better understand how to word things externally do tend to create a Fe-dominated external world where it is more of a struggle for us Fi users. It's certainly not any Fe user's fault, individually, especially considering how kind and conscientious most Fe users tend to be, but Fe users are a tiny bit responsible in that they use their own modes of feeling and expressing and welcome others, but don't really actively look for new ways of expression (which is simply fallout from the way Je works). FePi is very warm and welcoming but not necessarily very aware that others may be expressing the same thing radically differently, or at least FePi doesn't consider it a priority to seek out and integrate new and different modes of expression. Si might not recognize a new mode if it doesn't fit with anything that has been experienced before, and Ni might not recognize it if it doesn't fit with their conception of that form of expression. Fi users are more... well, we don't really expect certain forms of communication as much from others. If anything, Ne and Se cause us to expect variety, and to always be searching for new and different modes of expression. So we really do approach each new person with "special treatment" because we assume each new person will be completely, completely different. As a result of being used in tandem with Pe, Fi is used to being more of a "filter" than a funnel, as we attempt to catch the emotional undercurrents that indicate meaning, instead of identifying the correct "form" of expression that indicates meaning, like FePi is better at doing. So as a result, we are less consistent personally, but we also do not expect consistency from others.

    As an Fe-user I should have to be more accommodating but they're not required to understand and recognize just how confusing they may be presenting themselves and work to try and better that? Does that seem fair to you?
    Absolutely.

  2. #82
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    It's fascinating how you think it should be your issue. I never said it is. I don't think the Fi user thinks it is or should be. Maybe that's part of the problem. It's part of your identity to try and understand other people and if you can't because they are giving out what you perceive to be “confusing signals” then it causes you distress, which is why you keep emphasizing that it's their problem if they can't communicate properly. They don't even think there is a problem lol. They just don't think they are on the same wavelength as you.

    The problem comes when we're being accused of not understanding you guys. If you yourselves aren't even aware of how it is you really feel about something, then how in the world am I supposed too? I'm doing the best I've got with what you're giving me. Telling me "you just don't understand me" feels unfair to me in this respect.

    You are correct that it causes me distress. It distresses me because I am trying to understand you and connect with you and it's frustrates me when I get mixed or contradicting signals.

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    She just had a hard time communicating verbally how she was feeling. She couldn't translate what was going on inside of her head/heart into words. An example of a conversation - me asking questions, her saying a little and me reading mostly her facial expressions. It seems unusual now that I think back on it. It's how she was though and actually, I did get to be pretty good at reading her mind.
    I see. I'm sorry to hear that things didn't work out.



    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    This is so funny. I've heard this "one-sided special treatment" many times and I never really quite get it. It’s their responsibility to express themselves in a way so that you can understand them. If they can’t, then it’s a problem because they are confusing and it’s important because you want to understand them. I think it’s a lot more important to you that you understand them than it is for them to be understood by you.
    I think you're right, and I wonder if this is related to how Fe-users connect and interact in the world (something skylights touched on in her reply post to me)

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I’m not trying to give you a hard time. I just think the whole way you think about the issue is interesting and completely illustrative of the difference between Fe and Fi, so thanks for participating in the dialogue.
    I didn't think you were, in fact you've been incredibly patient and understanding. If anything I owe you an apology, I've been very short with you. While I stand by my opinions and my statements, I could have conducted myself better.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Yes, absolutely. And let me pull in what you said to highlander, and respond, because I think there is a HUGE point here about the difference in PiJe and PeJi that really creates misunderstanding -



    With no offense meant at all, tinker, I think that a minor part of the problem is that the collective of Fe users who do better understand how to word things externally do tend to create a Fe-dominated external world where it is more of a struggle for us Fi users. It's certainly not any Fe user's fault, individually, especially considering how kind and conscientious most Fe users tend to be, but Fe users are a tiny bit responsible in that they use their own modes of feeling and expressing and welcome others, but don't really actively look for new ways of expression (which is simply fallout from the way Je works). FePi is very warm and welcoming but not necessarily very aware that others may be expressing the same thing radically differently, or at least FePi doesn't consider it a priority to seek out and integrate new and different modes of expression. Si might not recognize a new mode if it doesn't fit with anything that has been experienced before, and Ni might not recognize it if it doesn't fit with their conception of that form of expression. Fi users are more... well, we don't really expect certain forms of communication as much from others. If anything, Ne and Se cause us to expect variety, and to always be searching for new and different modes of expression. So we really do approach each new person with "special treatment" because we assume each new person will be completely, completely different. As a result of being used in tandem with Pe, Fi is used to being more of a "filter" than a funnel, as we attempt to catch the emotional undercurrents that indicate meaning, instead of identifying the correct "form" of expression that indicates meaning, like FePi is better at doing. So as a result, we are less consistent personally, but we also do not expect consistency from others.
    Interesting, especially the bolded. I hadn't really thought of it this way.

    I suppose I come off the way that I do because I'm an Si-dom and an Fe-aux. I look around the world and I see VERY common patterns in which people express themselves and connect with each other. When I hear words like "anger" and "happiness" and "love" these all carry with them an attached list of thoughts, behaviors, and actions and these "lists" seem to be generally shared by virtually everyone I've ever come into contact with (the 'standard' I spoke of earlier) and when someone acts outside of those lists and actions, I have to try and adapt and I add to these lists, broadening my experiences. For the most part this isn't really an issue but when it becomes a problem is when the actions contradict each other OR they start to develop a pattern that demonstrates something else than what the other person is expressing or behaving to me - that they aren't interested, that they're upset with me, etc..

    I don't think Fi-users really understand JUST how perceptive Fe-users are. We are observing every action, deed, and thing you say and not just what you say but HOW you say it and the inflection and tone you use. I said this once before and I'll say it again: People have no idea how much of themselves they give away not just in what they say and do but what they don't say and do. It's from these external queues that we read you.

    When I (and perhaps other Fe-users) get frustrated with Fi-users is when I do communicate with you, and you guys get frustrated with me because I'm not understanding you when you don't quite understand yourselves or what it is you really, I feel like you're putting more responsibility on to me than is fairly allowed and that's hard for me to deal with. I WANT to connect with you, I WANT to get you, and I imagine all of these ISFJ parents that get crapped on for being 'simpletons' want too as well, and I feel like these ISFJs aren't being handled as fairly as should.

    I'm willing to concede and that I and perhaps other Fe-users (though I won't claim to speak for them) tend to project onto the world how it is that we think the world ought to be and I can see why that would be frustrating for Fi-users who follow the 'beat of their own drum' as it were. Here we are projecting our world views, telling everyone how things should be, and you guys feel like you're being told you're a part of a system you didn't sign on for or necessarily agree with! I imagine we come off as as sanctimonious or self-righteous at best and tyrannical at worst.

    My 2 cents..
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

  3. #83
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    I would like to express my feelings and say that I hate this thread. It seriously sucks. thankyoubuhbye.

  4. #84
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    I would like to express my feelings and say that I hate this thread. It seriously sucks. thankyoubuhbye.


    Sorry, my negativity poo-pooed all over the thread...
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

  5. #85
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    You're missing the point. I'm not talking about "accepting someone for as they are" or anything like that. What I'm talking about is a disconnect between how a person really feels about something and how it is they are choosing to express it. If you tell me that you're upset about something but you don't express discontent, I can't be held responsible for that. Your actions need to match your words.
    For some people, especially thinking types, emotional expression does not add clarity. A major purpose for using emotion when expressing is that it adds weight. Notably, Fe types supposedly don't always feel emotions they show; it's not "faking", it's simply using emotion as a communication tool.

    However, back to those thinking types - they may actively work to separate emotions from their judging because they aren't judging in terms of human value, so the emotions just become distracting noise. Because they have not been in the habit of processing & using emotion as something that clarifies & communicates clearly, they may not be very good at it. It can be scary, uncharted territory they may try to avoid.

    It's something of a gift of the NFPs to NOT read people's minds & tell them how they feel or what they need, but to help someone navigate that uncharted territory in a safe, nonjudgmental way. There is no proper way in this process; it's messy & complicated, but after working through all the muck the person can find their feelings are clarified & ordered so they can THEN be expressed properly.

    I know this is going to sound incredibly judgmental and Fe-like, but I do believe that, by and large, there is a pretty universal standard for how it is to express and communicate feelings. Some people may do more quietly or more forcefully than others but by and large there are universal traits that everyone recognizes. If you're happy, you smile. If you're angry, you'll scowl or raise your voice or other such examples. Everyone may have their own little pet ways of expressing and doing things (however ambiguous they may or may not be) and everyone has their own eccentricities and in that case it's a matter of understanding that particular individual. But...again, if your actions aren't matching your words, then I can't be blamed for misunderstanding you.
    Not universal, but cultural. In different cultures, those physical signs can actually signal very different feelings. For example, smiling with the teeth showing in the US means friendly/happy/confident - in some other places, it means aggressive/threatening/taunting. My ISFP step-dad is from an island culture that is much, much more subdued in expression than my ISFJ's mom's western & latin upbringing. I've seen conflict between them there because she thinks he's asking her to read his mind & he doesn't get why she doesn't see the signals he sent.

    Anyhow, Fe to me is very much like language, and language seems very Fe in a lot of ways. We have a common, agreed upon meaning for these vocal sounds & we use them to communicate & keep life going. Being a Fi type when young can kind of be like being a foreigner in another country & speaking a different native tongue. You have to translate your feelings to what is appropriate & a lot can get lost in translation, or you struggle to find the words because you're not a native speaker & it doesn't flow naturally for you.

    It's a common theme for Fi-dom to struggle with confidence, and I think it's because we learn early that we're prone to being misunderstood, and it gives a sense of being "wrong" all the time. So you almost begin to approach everything as something that is "wrong", either apologetically or defensively or self-deprecatingly or defiantly. This can compound the issue of course. I grew up being told I was "wrong" a lot, but I had trouble seeing what was "normal" & was awkward in adopting it, and sometimes when I did see it, it felt wrong to me, so I was stubborn to adopt it. For me, the action matching my words was often NOT the normal, standard. That felt WRONG to me. I had to almost invent something because the "language" was inadequate. I used drawing a lot as a child for this. The issue arises when the feeling has NO assigned outer, common signal. This is an issue Fi types face rather regularly.

    So while it's true the burden lies upon the minority usually to adapt to be understood, it's helpful when someone sees that bigger picture & doesn't assume negative intentions. It's like not assuming a foreigner is rude or crazy because they don't adhere perfectly to your country's way. You make some allowances at least, and at best, you celebrate differences & learn to be more adaptable yourself.

    My poor ISFJ mom is actually surrounded by FPs (me, my step-dad & sister), and I think she has probably had to adapt with us. We communicate in a more raw way & are admittedly inconsistent & hard to decipher at times. She's made very similar remarks as you about "universal" signals, which is sort of humorous to me. She wants us to adapt to some abstract standard that is irrelvant to the majority in this case - she never will recognize it as her preference. In having conversations like this, I see she just wants some outer consistency as a guide to act on. That's perfectly understandable.... this is what Fe is good at, but it doesn't operate at its best level when a person is stuck on a standard that no longer is relevant to an environment (when Si gets stubborn).

    As an ISFJ 9w1 sx/sp, the only times I ever feel like I'm not getting more point across is when I'm afraid of creating conflict and you know what? That's my problem and not the problem the people around me. If they are doing something that can create conflict with me, then I need to speak up and express that it's bother me. If I choose not to do that then I bear full responsibility as I can't reasonably expect them to accomodate me if I don't give them a chance too.
    It definitely is an individual's problem if they are not communicating clearly, but people can stop making attempts to when others are quick to dismiss expressions that don't align with their personal "shoulds". The misunderstanding becomes their problem too then, because they aren't meeting someone halfway (which is what good communication is often about).

    A relationship is not a business... there should be a higher level of compassionate & unselfish accommodating, IMO. It's the most personal sphere of life. So if your partner is not communicating perfectly clearly, for the sake of your relationship, it can be good to NOT jump to conclusions because they didn't express properly & you can't help that. This is especially true if over time you KNOW they do not communicate or process feelings in the same way you do or that most people do.

    I've had to struggle against that "universal standard" with SFJ family members because everything becomes case-by-case. It's like that standard is always default when faced with the unknown instead of them being able to extrapolate off of what is known about you (which is the NFP way). Of course they have their gifts. They have much better social skills in many ways than I do. They communicate better in a casual, everyday manner.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  6. #86
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    For some people, especially thinking types, emotional expression does not add clarity. A major purpose for using emotion when expressing is that it adds weight. Notably, Fe types supposedly don't always feel emotions they show; it's not "faking", it's simply using emotion as a communication tool.

    However, back to those thinking types - they may actively work to separate emotions from their judging because they aren't judging in terms of human value, so the emotions just become distracting noise. Because they have not been in the habit of processing & using emotion as something that clarifies & communicates clearly, they may not be very good at it. It can be scary, uncharted territory they may try to avoid.

    It's something of a gift of the NFPs to NOT read people's minds & tell them how they feel or what they need, but to help someone navigate that uncharted territory in a safe, nonjudgmental way. There is no proper way in this process; it's messy & complicated, but after working through all the muck the person can find their feelings are clarified & ordered so they can THEN be expressed properly.
    What exactly do you mean by the bolded?

    Also, an interesting thought. If I'm understanding you correctly and please correct me if I'm not, you're stating that Thinking types or NFPs don't use emotions as a communication tool. Fair enough. If this is true, then how do you choose to communicate your needs and if your response is "verbal" then how I am, as an Fe-type, to construe your words when they don't match your actions?


    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Not universal, but cultural. In different cultures, those physical signs can actually signal very different feelings. For example, smiling with the teeth showing in the US means friendly/happy/confident - in some other places, it means aggressive/threatening/taunting. My ISFP step-dad is from an island culture that is much, much more subdued in expression than my ISFJ's mom's western & latin upbringing. I've seen conflict between them there because she thinks he's asking her to read his mind & he doesn't get why she doesn't see the signals he sent.

    Anyhow, Fe to me is very much like language, and language seems very Fe in a lot of ways. We have a common, agreed upon meaning for these vocal sounds & we use them to communicate & keep life going. Being a Fi type when young can kind of be like being a foreigner in another country & speaking a different native tongue. You have to translate your feelings to what is appropriate & a lot can get lost in translation, or you struggle to find the words because you're not a native speaker & it doesn't flow naturally for you.
    A fair point. Thank you for pointing this out.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    It's a common theme for Fi-dom to struggle with confidence, and I think it's because we learn early that we're prone to being misunderstood, and it gives a sense of being "wrong" all the time. So you almost begin to approach everything as something that is "wrong", either apologetically or defensively or self-deprecatingly or defiantly. This can compound the issue of course. I grew up being told I was "wrong" a lot, but I had trouble seeing what was "normal" & was awkward in adopting it, and sometimes when I did see it, it felt wrong to me, so I was stubborn to adopt it. For me, the action matching my words was often NOT the normal, standard. That felt WRONG to me. I had to almost invent something because the "language" was inadequate. I used drawing a lot as a child for this. The issue arises when the feeling has NO assigned outer, common signal. This is an issue Fi types face rather regularly.
    I can understand this, and I'm sorry to hear that.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    So while it's true the burden lies upon the minority usually to adapt to be understood, it's helpful when someone sees that bigger picture & doesn't assume negative intentions. It's like not assuming a foreigner is rude or crazy because they don't adhere perfectly to your country's way. You make some allowances at least, and at best, you celebrate differences & learn to be more adaptable yourself.
    Agreed, and I wonder now if this was the "bias" that highlander kept referring too and I can see why it is he might felt I was imposing in a negative way. As an Fe-user, matters of emotions and expression are very cut and dry for me. being both an Si and Fe user, actions need to be consistent and while I can bend a lot (or at least I'd like to think I can), I can only bend so much and when a user's actions are simply too different from what their words are communicating I can have an *extremely* difficult time understanding and accepting the attempts at communications. At best I'd just be dismissive, at worst outright hostile and distrustful.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    My poor ISFJ mom is actually surrounded by FPs (me, my step-dad & sister), and I think she has probably had to adapt with us. We communicate in a more raw way & are admittedly inconsistent & hard to decipher at times. She's made very similar remarks as you about "universal" signals, which is sort of humorous to me. She wants us to adapt to some abstract standard that is irrelvant to the majority in this case - she never will recognize it as her preference. In having conversations like this, I see she just wants some outer consistency as a guide to act on. That's perfectly understandable.... this is what Fe is good at, but it doesn't operate at its best level when a person is stuck on a standard that no longer is relevant to an environment (when Si gets stubborn).
    I can see that, and I run into a similar brick wall when I deal with Fe-users of older generations. I can see the merit in their values but some of then are in dire need of reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    It definitely is an individual's problem if they are not communicating clearly, but people can stop making attempts to when others are quick to dismiss expressions that don't align with their personal "shoulds". The misunderstanding becomes their problem too then, because they aren't meeting someone halfway (which is what good communication is often about).
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    A relationship is not a business... there should be a higher level of compassionate & unselfish accommodating, IMO. It's the most personal sphere of life. So if your partner is not communicating perfectly clearly, for the sake of your relationship, it can be good to NOT jump to conclusions because they didn't express properly & you can't help that. This is especially true if over time you KNOW they do not communicate or process feelings in the same way you do or that most people do.
    In the beginning of a relationship I would agree with this. In every personal relationship I've been in there is always a long "adjusting" period for me I learn about the individual's quirks and habits and for lack of a better term "way of being". The problem I've found is after the relationship has progressed for quite a period of time and their actions are still inconsistant with the framework I've been able to devise for this individual and I've recently learned this is because I always treated people as if there was a logic or rational underpinnings for the way they do things. It's only recently come to my attention that individuals are neurotic and that I can't make sense of their actions because they can't even do that. These individuals I *have* to treat with kid gloves and as patronizing as that sounds...I really don't know of any other option.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I've had to struggle against that "universal standard" with SFJ family members because everything becomes case-by-case. It's like that standard is always default when faced with the unknown instead of them being able to extrapolate off of what is known about you (which is the NFP way). Of course they have their gifts. They have much better social skills in many ways than I do. They communicate better in a casual, everyday manner.
    That does sound incredibly rigid and I've noted this proclivity in myself many times, which is why I always try and keep these sorts of discussions open, to remind me and help me to understand you guys better. I try in my head to devise an individual "profile" of every person (their likes, dislikes, things they care and don't care about, etc..) and I try and go from that and it's seems to have worked out for me pretty well. Unless I complete this profile of this person in my head, I tend to stick to my "standard" and for the most part it seems to have worked out (the exception being what I aid above about neurosis).
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

  7. #87
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    Interesting, especially the bolded. I hadn't really thought of it this way.

    I suppose I come off the way that I do because I'm an Si-dom and an Fe-aux. I look around the world and I see VERY common patterns in which people express themselves and connect with each other. When I hear words like "anger" and "happiness" and "love" these all carry with them an attached list of thoughts, behaviors, and actions and these "lists" seem to be generally shared by virtually everyone I've ever come into contact with (the 'standard' I spoke of earlier) and when someone acts outside of those lists and actions, I have to try and adapt and I add to these lists, broadening my experiences. For the most part this isn't really an issue but when it becomes a problem is when the actions contradict each other OR they start to develop a pattern that demonstrates something else than what the other person is expressing or behaving to me - that they aren't interested, that they're upset with me, etc..

    I don't think Fi-users really understand JUST how perceptive Fe-users are. We are observing every action, deed, and thing you say and not just what you say but HOW you say it and the inflection and tone you use. I said this once before and I'll say it again: People have no idea how much of themselves they give away not just in what they say and do but what they don't say and do. It's from these external queues that we read you.

    When I (and perhaps other Fe-users) get frustrated with Fi-users is when I do communicate with you, and you guys get frustrated with me because I'm not understanding you when you don't quite understand yourselves or what it is you really, I feel like you're putting more responsibility on to me than is fairly allowed and that's hard for me to deal with. I WANT to connect with you, I WANT to get you, and I imagine all of these ISFJ parents that get crapped on for being 'simpletons' want too as well, and I feel like these ISFJs aren't being handled as fairly as should.

    I'm willing to concede and that I and perhaps other Fe-users (though I won't claim to speak for them) tend to project onto the world how it is that we think the world ought to be and I can see why that would be frustrating for Fi-users who follow the 'beat of their own drum' as it were. Here we are projecting our world views, telling everyone how things should be, and you guys feel like you're being told you're a part of a system you didn't sign on for or necessarily agree with! I imagine we come off as as sanctimonious or self-righteous at best and tyrannical at worst.

    My 2 cents..
    I see what you mean, and I totally agree with you that Fe users (all Js, really) are incredibly observant of consistency of behavior. Looping back to what I mentioned about lack of intention earlier, it's actually somewhat terrifying, to a P, because we don't put deliberate/conscious external intention into all our behavior. If my boyfriend and I are sitting on the couch together at a gathering, and I give him a hug, it might be because I want to communicate warmth and love to him, or because it seems like he could use affirmation at the moment, or because socially it is an indicator of our bond and comfort with one another - or it might really just be that the idea of hugging popped into my head and seemed pleasant, and I didn't even think about what it might indicate to him or how it might be interpreted contextually by anyone else. It explains the sometime-awkwardness of P behavior, because we don't really always think about what the external indications or consequences of that behavior may be before embarking upon it.

    So when a J type calls us on our behavior, and says that it's telling them something about us, it can feel foreign to the point of completely inaccurate because we didn't always intend it. I think you guys pick up on a lot of subconscious patterns that we don't even see ourselves, and that can be incredibly valuable for us to hear, and to begin to work on consistency and awareness of behavior, but as a J you have to understand that you may be presenting information to us that seems crystal clear to you but is a relatively large blind spot to us, and as such it may make us very uncomfortable or simply not seem right to us at all. I think as a 6 I tend to be wary of consequence, but I'm not always particularly good at taking the external context in, in terms of thinking about functional meaning (as in, what would that hug at a gathering communicate to him? to everyone else? how should I time it? is it appropriate?, and so on) - because I'm more used to looking to the external world as a source of pure information (Pe) instead of an arena of cause and effect (Je).

    When I (and perhaps other Fe-users) get frustrated with Fi-users is when I do communicate with you, and you guys get frustrated with me because I'm not understanding you when you don't quite understand yourselves or what it is you really, I feel like you're putting more responsibility on to me than is fairly allowed and that's hard for me to deal with. I WANT to connect with you, I WANT to get you, and I imagine all of these ISFJ parents that get crapped on for being 'simpletons' want too as well, and I feel like these ISFJs aren't being handled as fairly as should.
    I wanted to come back to this because I agree that I also imagine loving, well-intentioned ISFJ parents being villianized, but at the same time, I know from experience with my ESFJ mom that there can be a painful disconnect between FP and FJ in terms of an FP child's emotional needs not being met and them not feeling supported as a result. Like it's been said, it's very hard for FPs to vocalize what we feel sometimes - my mom and boyfriend help me by "walking me through" and asking questions about what I feel (their tactic, not mine). I remember as a child that my mom would often provide me with everything I could possibly want, but sometimes she would leave to go get me things, and all I really wanted was for her to stay with me and be emotionally supportive. I think that's also a bit of an sp-dom (mom) versus sx-dom (me) effect, but it also is the FJ emphasis on form versus the FP emphasis on content again. From my mom's POV, she was doing all of these things for me, so I should feel loved and supported. From my POV, she wasn't with me, so I felt abandoned, even though I understood that she wanted to help me. Sometimes it felt like I was "untouchable" for some reason - like I knew she wanted to help me and that she loved me but that she didn't connect with me.

    The label "simpleton" is cruel, but it's true that to an NFP, sometimes the SJ perspective can seem like it's missing a very big component in terms of leaving room for things that have yet to be experienced or things that might be - things that SFJs, in interacting with others, do not always leave much room for. Part of it is that Js are working with the present external bounds, while Ps assume lack of external bounds, so you guys utilize the external information available, while we assume there's always more. So when you act upon what you know - which to us is clearly not everything - it can be frustrating. I think this is the "invisible" responsibility - perhaps what seems unfair to you? - that is being thrust upon the SFJ - that of accounting for what you do not know. What the NFP does not understand is that for Je to work, you have to know what you don't know, not simply that you don't know. For Pe to work, all you have to do is leave open space.

    Does that make sense? I agree that it's not fair to assume SFJs for simpletons or for the people who interact with them to get upset that they're not mind readers, but SFJs can work on leaving more room for unusual possibilities and trying to get more individualized input from NFPs. Thinking that we are inconsistent just because of external behavior misses the HUGE internal consistency grid of Fi - it's just that our consistency is mapped into our value responses instead of our behavioral initiations. You just have to look in a different place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    I would like to express my feelings and say that I hate this thread. It seriously sucks. thankyoubuhbye.
    I don't know. There's been a bit of conflict but I am learning a lot about ISFJs and about how to get along with you guys better and how to better see through your perspectives. So I'm really glad it exists.

    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    Also, an interesting thought. If I'm understanding you correctly and please correct me if I'm not, you're stating that Thinking types or NFPs don't use emotions as a communication tool. Fair enough. If this is true, then how do you choose to communicate your needs and if your response is "verbal" then how I am, as an Fe-type, to construe your words when they don't match your actions?
    If I can hop in - I think it comes back to assigning less weight of intention to actions. Don't assume that we necessarily meant anything by our actions beyond the immediate scope of the action itself. From my hug example again: it's entirely possible that I was just cold and really am oblivious/carefree enough to just latch onto this nice warm body next to me, since he's comfortable with me sharing his space. It's more about the "content" of the action than its functional meaning/form. Our communication, too, is really more content than form. If we're saying something that differs from our actions, it can generally be assumed that on some level we do mean what we're saying but behaviorally we fall short of it for some reason. I'd be happy to try to break down real life examples, if you have some.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kayness View Post
    now you just have to find out if your judging style fit FiTe or FeTi better.
    hey that's a good way of looking at it actually. I'll have to think about that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I see what you mean, and I totally agree with you that Fe users (all Js, really) are incredibly observant of consistency of behavior. Looping back to what I mentioned about lack of intention earlier, it's actually somewhat terrifying, to a P, because we don't put deliberate/conscious external intention into all our behavior. If my boyfriend and I are sitting on the couch together at a gathering, and I give him a hug, it might be because I want to communicate warmth and love to him, or because it seems like he could use affirmation at the moment, or because socially it is an indicator of our bond and comfort with one another - or it might really just be that the idea of hugging popped into my head and seemed pleasant, and I didn't even think about what it might indicate to him or how it might be interpreted contextually by anyone else. It explains the sometime-awkwardness of P behavior, because we don't really always think about what the external indications or consequences of that behavior may be before embarking upon it.
    To be fair, I think you might be overstating how much we observe your actions. Certainly we do note your individual actions but whats more important to us is how it fits in to the overall pattern of behavior you have toward us. You leaning in to hug your boyfriend, if you've always been warm and affectionate with him, would only be noted as a behavior thats consistent with your actions thus far. The only time I could see it as being something of concern is if you are normally very cold to him (of which I sorely doubt you are ) at which case your behavior would be out of the ordinary so we would be left puzzling why you did that and trying to figure out what your angle or pattern is.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    So when a J type calls us on our behavior, and says that it's telling them something about us, it can feel foreign to the point of completely inaccurate because we didn't always intend it. I think you guys pick up on a lot of subconscious patterns that we don't even see ourselves, and that can be incredibly valuable for us to hear, and to begin to work on consistency and awareness of behavior, but as a J you have to understand that you may be presenting information to us that seems crystal clear to you but is a relatively large blind spot to us, and as such it may make us very uncomfortable or simply not seem right to us at all. I think as a 6 I tend to be wary of consequence, but I'm not always particularly good at taking the external context in, in terms of thinking about functional meaning (as in, what would that hug at a gathering communicate to him? to everyone else? how should I time it? is it appropriate?, and so on) - because I'm more used to looking to the external world as a source of pure information (Pe) instead of an arena of cause and effect (Je).
    I've heard this expressed before, that you didn't intend for an action to result in something and I actually got into a heated argument with my INxx-ex girlfriend (I'm starting to suspect she was an INFP). She always seemed to act like that just because she didn't intend on doing something somehow absolved her of the action itself. I told her that while a persons intentions are very important, they still have to take responsibility for whatever actions may have resulted from their mishap. I wouldn't hold it against her if she didn't intend on harming me but that didn't change the fact that she did do harm to me. You may have not intended on breaking the cookie jar...but you still broke it...and we still have a broken cookie jar that needs to be fixed. I felt like she needed to own up to that (not to breaking a cookie jar, but rather the principle I was getting at) .She didn't agree with me. To me, this is a basic tenet of being a responsible adult.

    Looking back though, I think I was projecting my own sense of responsibility onto her and expecting her to share that. That's not entirely fair.

    I suspect this was a Fi-Fe conflict more than anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I wanted to come back to this because I agree that I also imagine loving, well-intentioned ISFJ parents being villianized, but at the same time, I know from experience with my ESFJ mom that there can be a painful disconnect between FP and FJ in terms of an FP child's emotional needs not being met and them not feeling supported as a result. Like it's been said, it's very hard for FPs to vocalize what we feel sometimes - my mom and boyfriend help me by "walking me through" and asking questions about what I feel (their tactic, not mine). I remember as a child that my mom would often provide me with everything I could possibly want, but sometimes she would leave to go get me things, and all I really wanted was for her to stay with me and be emotionally supportive. I think that's also a bit of an sp-dom (mom) versus sx-dom (me) effect, but it also is the FJ emphasis on form versus the FP emphasis on content again. From my mom's POV, she was doing all of these things for me, so I should feel loved and supported. From my POV, she wasn't with me, so I felt abandoned, even though I understood that she wanted to help me. Sometimes it felt like I was "untouchable" for some reason - like I knew she wanted to help me and that she loved me but that she didn't connect with me.
    I can understand that and I'm sorry she didn't. Did you ever tell her that you just wanted her to be there? Have you talked to her about this since then?

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    The label "simpleton" is cruel, but it's true that to an NFP, sometimes the SJ perspective can seem like it's missing a very big component in terms of leaving room for things that have yet to be experienced or things that might be - things that SFJs, in interacting with others, do not always leave much room for. Part of it is that Js are working with the present external bounds, while Ps assume lack of external bounds, so you guys utilize the external information available, while we assume there's always more. So when you act upon what you know - which to us is clearly not everything - it can be frustrating. I think this is the "invisible" responsibility - perhaps what seems unfair to you? - that is being thrust upon the SFJ - that of accounting for what you do not know.
    I think there are better ways of looking at this as what you said I think is a misunderstanding of our actions

    1) It's not that we don't leave room for things (this to me implies we're closed minded) but rather it's that we don't need too. Our experience and knowledge of the situation is what usually dictates our actions in that situation and if you're reacting in a way that's very consistent with an experience we've had before...odds are we're going to gravitate to that assumption.

    In other words: If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...I'm not going to immediately assume a geese.

    I think it would fair to you Fi-users though if we Fe-users tried very hard not to jump to conclusions and try to analyze the situation first.

    2) The "responsibility" we feel may be something that exists in our own heads. Highlander pointed out that it seemed more important to Fe users to understand Fi users than it is to them that they are understood and this is something I hadn't really considered before. I always assumed that people really want me to understand them as best they can, it never occured to me that understanding them may be more important to ME than it is to them. This means we may be projecting what we think we should be doing on to you and getting frustrated when we can't because of you going about your business and being all Fi and stuff That's our problem, and not yours.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    What the NFP does not understand is that for Je to work, you have to know what you don't know, not simply that you don't know. For Pe to work, all you have to do is leave open space.
    That sounds reasonable...but I'm not sure if I agree or disagree (mostly because I'm not familiar enough with the subject matter to make a judgement on it)

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Does that make sense? I agree that it's not fair to assume SFJs for simpletons or for the people who interact with them to get upset that they're not mind readers, but SFJs can work on leaving more room for unusual possibilities and trying to get more individualized input from NFPs. Thinking that we are inconsistent just because of external behavior misses the HUGE internal consistency grid of Fi - it's just that our consistency is mapped into our value responses instead of our behavioral initiations. You just have to look in a different place.
    I can agree to that.

    Can we haz truce now?

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    If I can hop in - I think it comes back to assigning less weight of intention to actions. Don't assume that we necessarily meant anything by our actions beyond the immediate scope of the action itself. From my hug example again: it's entirely possible that I was just cold and really am oblivious/carefree enough to just latch onto this nice warm body next to me, since he's comfortable with me sharing his space. It's more about the "content" of the action than its functional meaning/form. Our communication, too, is really more content than form. If we're saying something that differs from our actions, it can generally be assumed that on some level we do mean what we're saying but behaviorally we fall short of it for some reason. I'd be happy to try to break down real life examples, if you have some.
    I have a few examples...but they're all very personal and frankly something I'm tired of ruminating over.

    As I said in your above example, unless you're behavior was consistently something different than what you were saying your hug wouldn't seem at all out of the ordinary.

    That being said I do understand the point you're trying to make though and that's an interesting perspective and something I'll have to keep in mind. I will admit that I personally may have difficulties with this approach because I tend to be *very* literal: If you tell me something, I will hold you to whatever it was you said exactly as you worded it. This has more to do with me being an Aspergerian than me being an ISFJ though.
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    To be fair, I think you might be overstating how much we observe your actions. Certainly we do note your individual actions but whats more important to us is how it fits in to the overall pattern of behavior you have toward us. You leaning in to hug your boyfriend, if you've always been warm and affectionate with him, would only be noted as a behavior thats consistent with your actions thus far. The only time I could see it as being something of concern is if you are normally very cold to him (of which I sorely doubt you are ) at which case your behavior would be out of the ordinary so we would be left puzzling why you did that and trying to figure out what your angle or pattern is.
    Ah ok, that makes sense. It's like a blip in the pattern.

    I've heard this expressed before, that you didn't intend for an action to result in something and I actually got into a heated argument with my INxx-ex girlfriend (I'm starting to suspect she was an INFP). She always seemed to act like that just because she didn't intend on doing something somehow absolved her of the action itself. I told her that while a persons intentions are very important, they still have to take responsibility for whatever actions may have resulted from their mishap. I wouldn't hold it against her if she didn't intend on harming me but that didn't change the fact that she did do harm to me. You may have not intended on breaking the cookie jar...but you still broke it...and we still have a broken cookie jar that needs to be fixed. I felt like she needed to own up to that (not to breaking a cookie jar, but rather the principle I was getting at) .She didn't agree with me. To me, this is a basic tenet of being a responsible adult.

    Looking back though, I think I was projecting my own sense of responsibility onto her and expecting her to share that. That's not entirely fair.

    I suspect this was a Fi-Fe conflict more than anything.
    Oh, interesting. Yeah, that sounds right. My boyfriend and I have argued over "assuming responsibility" before, because to me it's just like, okay, well we have a broken jar now, let's just get this thing up ASAP, but he wants me to say that I'm the one who's messed up, and it drives me crazy because I feel like there are always multiple determining factors in any situation. I always apologize, but him wanting me to claim responsibility tends to feel like a blame game to me. I do feel responsibility and definitely make a big effort to address my personal issues when they lead to a bad situation, but I hate having to state to the world that it was "my fault" when I feel like that's a major oversimplification of a situation that is inevitably caused by more than just me. I mean, if I forget plane tickets or something, that is my fault, and I will say that. But if it's a misunderstanding, that always involves one person speaking in a certain way and one person listening in a certain way, and it's really ultimately both of their "fault" if a misunderstanding occurs.

    Now I generally try to just claim fault in the interest of harmony, but I don't really understand why he needs me to state that I'm the problem when it's almost always far more complex than one person's doing. If I didn't know him better I would say it seemed like he was just trying to boost his ego, but he's not like that. So I don't really understand it. If I lay claim to having created the situation... what does it change about the situation? Nothing... I'm going to do my best to fix it anyway...

    I can understand that and I'm sorry she didn't. Did you ever tell her that you just wanted her to be there? Have you talked to her about this since then?
    Thanks And yeah, we talked about it a couple of years ago. She apologized and explained that providing has always been the best way she knows how to help, and she doesn't feel like she's very good at sitting and talking about emotions. She's also sort of ADHD, lol, so it's hard for her to just sit and not do. And my dad (INTP) has always been reserved and hands-off, so he never really did that kind of support, either. My brother (ISTP) and boyfriend (ISFJ) still don't do the Fi thing, but they will just sit and hang, so now I just go to them if I feel that need.

    I think there are better ways of looking at this as what you said I think is a misunderstanding of our actions

    1) It's not that we don't leave room for things (this to me implies we're closed minded) but rather it's that we don't need too. Our experience and knowledge of the situation is what usually dictates our actions in that situation and if you're reacting in a way that's very consistent with an experience we've had before...odds are we're going to gravitate to that assumption.

    In other words: If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...I'm not going to immediately assume a geese.
    Yes, right, exactly. I didn't mean to imply you're closed minded, just that Fe and Te can act on whatever information is available and can continue acting even when new information presents itself - because the chances are the new information will continue to be consistent with the existing information. We discover it has tail feathers: still can behave as if we are dealing with a duck.

    I think it would fair to you Fi-users though if we Fe-users tried very hard not to jump to conclusions and try to analyze the situation first.


    2) The "responsibility" we feel may be something that exists in our own heads. Highlander pointed out that it seemed more important to Fe users to understand Fi users than it is to them that they are understood and this is something I hadn't really considered before. I always assumed that people really want me to understand them as best they can, it never occured to me that understanding them may be more important to ME than it is to them. This means we may be projecting what we think we should be doing on to you and getting frustrated when we can't because of you going about your business and being all Fi and stuff That's our problem, and not yours.
    That is probably very true! I kind of assume that most people won't get me. I don't really need that out of most people - just my close family and friends. From other people respect and kindness is most important.

    That sounds reasonable...but I'm not sure if I agree or disagree (mostly because I'm not familiar enough with the subject matter to make a judgement on it)

    I can agree to that.

    Can we haz truce now?
    Oh! Well of course. I thought we already did. I don't see Fe-Fi as a conflict, really. Just lines in the sand...

    I have a few examples...but they're all very personal and frankly something I'm tired of ruminating over.
    I understand.

    As I said in your above example, unless you're behavior was consistently something different than what you were saying your hug wouldn't seem at all out of the ordinary.

    That being said I do understand the point you're trying to make though and that's an interesting perspective and something I'll have to keep in mind. I will admit that I personally may have difficulties with this approach because I tend to be *very* literal: If you tell me something, I will hold you to whatever it was you said exactly as you worded it. This has more to do with me being an Aspergerian than me being an ISFJ though.
    Mm, that makes sense.

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