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  1. #71
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    You're missing the point. I'm not talking about "accepting someone for as they are" or anything like that. What I'm talking about is a disconnect between how a person really feels about something and how it is they are choosing to express it. If you tell me that you're upset about something but you don't express discontent, I can't be held responsible for that. Your actions need to match your words.

    I know this is going to sound incredibly judgmental and Fe-like, but I do believe that, by and large, there is a pretty universal standard for how it is to express and communicate feelings. Some people may do more quietly or more forcefully than others but by and large there are universal traits that everyone recognizes. If you're happy, you smile. If you're angry, you'll scowl or raise your voice or other such examples. Everyone may have their own little pet ways of expressing and doing things (however ambiguous they may or may not be) and everyone has their own eccentricities and in that case it's a matter of understanding that particular individual. But...again, if your actions aren't matching your words, then I can't be blamed for misunderstanding you.
    I understand what you are saying. There is value in expressing and communicating feelings in a way that other people understand obviously.

    The problem is your bolded statement. I'm just stating that ISFJs on average tend to not understand INFPs particularly well (it's half belief/half conjecture). It doesn't assign blame. If the statement is true then it is a simple fact.

    The problem with the view you are voicing here is that it is critical of people who don't comply with this "standard" you are referring to. Therefore, those who do not comply with the standard ARE being blamed. By you. It comes across as a negative judgment of the other person vs. understanding and accepting them for who they are.

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  2. #72
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I understand what you are saying. There is value in expressing and communicating feelings in a way that other people understand obviously.
    Okie dokie. I was starting to wonder if maybe we were discussing two different points altogether and we were talking past each other

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    The problem is your bolded statement. I'm just stating that ISFJs on average tend to not understand INFPs particularly well (it's half belief/half conjecture). It doesn't assign blame. If the statement is true then it is a simple fact.
    I won't disagree with that, I've heard that often. The point I tried to make in my very first post and since then is that the problems might not be with ISFJ...it might be because INFPs are unintentionally sending off contradictory or misleading signals. Earlier in the thread it was stated that ISFJs are very good at reading external signals. If this is true, and your ISFJ (whomever it might be) isn't understanding you, then perhaps you may want to consider the problems lies in the signals you're giving off. We're a concrete bunch, we read only what you give us

    (Though that isn't to say that ISFJs aren't guilty of making false assumptions but that's a whole other thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    The problem with the view you are voicing here is that it is critical of people who don't comply with this "standard" you are referring to. Therefore, those who do not comply with the standard ARE being blamed. By you. It comes across as a negative judgment of the other person vs. understanding and accepting them for who they are.
    Once again you're missing the point. This isn't about "accepting someone for who they are", I realize that everyone has their own quirks and such. This is about expecting consistency in their words and deeds and like it or not there IS a standard, universally recognized set behaviors and and actions in which human beings communicate and connect with each other. As someone with Asperger's Syndrome, I have frequently discovered that *I* misunderstand people and they can initally misunderstand my actions as I miss social ques or other nuances and this has caused me and the people around me a great deal of problems. While I do beg people for their pardons and their understanding when I misunderstand them, I do not believe that they are somehow responsible for the fact that I perceive the world and react to the world differently they do and that somehow they should the magical ability to read my mind. I don't think I'm defective or anything like that, just different, and that's perfectly fine.

    But just because I'm different doesn't mean the standard isn't the same or that it somehow doesn't apply to me. For instance, I'm a very quiet, introverted person and people mistake that for disinterest or disapproval of them or whatever activity we may be engaged in. The truth is that I'm actually enjoying myself. It's just that, like a lot Aspergians, we can appear very serious or non-emotional even if we may not be. That being said, are they are fault for making that assumption? To there eyes my behavior reflects what someone who typically IS bored or disinterested acts like, so are they wrong in making that assumption? I don't think they are and I don't blame them for it. It's not their fault that I behave differently than most people normally do. As such, I usually have to explain to them that I have Asperger's and that I'm actually quite content. At that point in time, they can choose to believe me or not at that point it's their choice. My the ones I call my friends usually understand and it's no longer an issue. In fact, they seem to enjoy my presence because I'm different (which a reaction that, to this day, I still don't fully understand)

    I realize I stated above that people typically have an easy time understanding me and perhaps I should rephrase that: People have an easy time understanding me insofar as I'm very blunt and direct with my communication and leave very little room for ambiguity unless, as I stated earlier, I'm trying to avoid a conflict. My behaviors and mannerisms to strangers though can send off mixed signals so I'm not surprised hat people can misunderstand me. But again...are they at fault for misunderstanding me? I'm not behaving as people commonly so I expect misunderstandings.It has nothing to do with their not accepting me or anything like, it's that I'm behaving as people normally do and the singals I'm sending off are unintentionally giving them the wrong idea. It's up to me to find a way to communicate to people in a way they understand.
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
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  3. #73
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    Once again you're missing the point. This isn't about "accepting someone for who they are", I realize that everyone has their own quirks and such. This is about expecting consistency in their words and deeds and like it or not there IS a standard, universally recognized set behaviors and and actions in which human beings communicate and connect with each other. As someone with Asperger's Syndrome, I have frequently discovered that *I* misunderstand people and they can initally misunderstand my actions as I miss social ques or other nuances and this has caused me and the people around me a great deal of problems. While I do beg people for their pardons and their understanding when I misunderstand them, I do not believe that they are somehow responsible for the fact that I perceive the world and react to the world differently they do and that somehow they should the magical ability to read my mind. I don't think I'm defective or anything like that, just different, and that's perfectly fine.
    Some types are less emotionally expressive than others. It's just a fact. The ones who are more expressive will better adhere better to your standard. The ones who are less expressive will adhere less to your standard. Therefore, the ones who are less expressive are not acting appropriately and should change. They should comply with these "standards and universally recognized set behaviors and actions" you mentioned. It implies an inherent judgment or bias against this particular type of person who is not doing what they should be doing. They should change their behavior you say. It is within their control. However, it is not easy for them because that is not naturally who they are. Therefore, the person not exhibiting the behavior you've identified feels criticized, judged and therefore not accepted for who they are. Do you understand what I mean? It doesn't matter if you think you are or are not accepting them (though I would argue that you are not). What matters most is whether or not they feel you do.

    I think you feel that it's your responsibility to make yourself understood by others. I think most people feel that way though and when they can't, it can be frustrating for them.

    There are also people who simply don't know how they feel. I find it particularly curious for this argument to be coming from an ISFJ Enneagram 9 because I don't think a person with a combination of these types would generally be on the high end of the spectrum of understanding how they feel or why. An Fi dom, on average, would tend to have a much better understanding of their own internal states of emotion and how they feel about something. It's what they do. From what I have seen however, on average, they seem to have a harder time expressing those things in a way that is obvious or easy for others to understand.

    Can you see how what you are saying creates bias against them? I don't know if I can explain this more clearly because it seems as obvious as the nose on my face.

    When I was in college, I went out with an Fi dom (ISFP). I would get frustrated because she didn't express herself and I felt it was important to do that in a relationship. I believe I was critical and thought she should change her behavior. It was quite unfair of me to do that regardless as to what universally applied standard might exist as to how someone is supposed to express themselves. I should have been more patient and accepting of her in that way.

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  4. #74
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    I tend to find a more interesting question to pose myself is what DOESN'T set me apart?

    As I progress through my life I find myself becoming increasingly isolated from others and most relations just seem to float about like some passing mist. Then again ive never been one to dwell on the past.

    Of course the irony is that there are most likely plenty who do think this way already. So perhaps nothing in particular sets me apart and the only ultimate statement of myself is that when I breathe in oxygen my body, by being slightly different at a minute, genetic level....processes that air in a way wholly unique to the template that is the identity that calls itself 'me' and therefore different from others; that is what sets me apart.

    The process of oxygen in a human lung doesn't change, but my lungs are not anothers. Maybe that's all we really have and even then....perhaps that doesn't even exist at all.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  5. #75
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    FWIW, I strongly agree with this:

    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    If you don't know how or what it is you're feeling and you either don't know or how to articulate or express that emotion in a meaningful way then that's your problem and not mine.
    But disagree with this:

    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    I do believe that, by and large, there is a pretty universal standard for how it is to express and communicate feelings.
    Sometimes it's very hard for people with Fi to even identify what their feelings are. It may not be easily expressable, as there may simply be no words or behaviors that accurately portray the nuances of what we are experiencing internally. It's akin to how Si and Ni can be challenging to articulate. In the everyday formal world, we generally do fine at navigating, but it becomes much harder when we are dealing with very important, emotional matters like family and intimate relationships.

    So it may be the Fi user's responsibility to express their personal feelings, especially if they expect others to respond to those feelings, but it is not the Fi user's fault that their internal language is not so easily translated to the external world, and as such we may need to ask a little extra patience of Fe users who are much quicker to be able to express what they mean. I often have to ask my ISFJ to be patient with me as I muck through my own feelings. Recently I have taken to Googling pictures or music in an attempt to convey what I lack in words.

    The point I tried to make in my very first post and since then is that the problems might not be with ISFJ...it might be because INFPs are unintentionally sending off contradictory or misleading signals.
    I think this is worth noting. FPs can unintentionally behave in ways that mean something to Fe users. I think that a lot of that has to do with Fe being purposeful and Fi being less so. Fe always acts with a goal, essentially, and reads Fi users' external language as if it is acted out with a goal in mind, too, even though it often is not.

  6. #76
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Fe always acts with a goal, essentially, and reads Fi users' external language as if it is acted out with a goal in mind, too, even though it often is not.
    I wonder if this is the biggest thing that leads to the misunderstandings. I have thought this before.

    In either case on the topic of the thread, this difference of Fi as dominant (INFP) vs Fe as auxiliary (for the ISFJ) is a huge difference between the two

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  7. #77
    Senior Member Tabula's Avatar
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    I'm sorry for butting in here. This thread is so interesting and helpful for me. *takes notes*

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I think this is worth noting. FPs can unintentionally behave in ways that mean something to Fe users. I think that a lot of that has to do with Fe being purposeful and Fi being less so. Fe always acts with a goal, essentially, and reads Fi users' external language as if it is acted out with a goal in mind, too, even though it often is not.
    Yeeeessss.

    This has been one of the two causes (ahem, the one which I'm to blame for) of every major misunderstanding had between my INFP partner and myself. You put it so much more concisely than I've been able to. I almost want to show him your post now.

    Sorry. Carry on.


    eta: dammit. I swear I didn't see highlander's post before writing this.

  8. #78
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    @skylights I just want to say that you are so lovely, fair and understanding and your ISFJ is really lucky to have you.

  9. #79
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Some types are less emotionally expressive than others. It's just a fact.
    I'm not disputing this.

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    The ones who are more expressive will better adhere better to your standard. The ones who are less expressive will adhere less to your standard. Therefore, the ones who are less expressive are not acting appropriately and should change. They should comply with these "standards and universally recognized set behaviors and actions" you mentioned. It implies an inherent judgment or bias against this particular type of person who is not doing what they should be doing. They should change their behavior you say. It is within their control. However, it is not easy for them because that is not naturally who they are. Therefore, the person not exhibiting the behavior you've identified feels criticized, judged and therefore not accepted for who they are. Do you understand what I mean? It doesn't matter if you think you are or are not accepting them (though I would argue that you are not). What matters most is whether or not they feel you do.
    Believe it or not, I do get the point you're trying to make. It's constantly zipping past I keep reiterating. I am not and never did state that would should not try to better understand our fellow human beings. I would ask that you please point where in this thread I advocated that we shouldn't try to be understanding each other. That is NOT what I've been stating.

    It's not that we shouldn't try to be more accepting or understanding, is thats people should understand that communication is a two way street and that there is only so much I can do. If you are express yourself as clearly as you can and I'm not understanding you then you've done the best you can and it's on me. BUT...

    BUT!!!

    IF YOU YOURSELF DO UNDERSTAND WHY IT IS YOU FEEL THE WAY IT IS YOU FEEL ABOUT SOMETHING, THAT IS NOT MY PROBLEM. THAT IS ENTIRELY YOURS.

    I will try to accommodate and discern your methods as best I can but ultimately it's on you. I've said this a dozen times now and apparently I need to keep repeating myself but: I can only work with the information I've got and you are sending me false or incorrect information because you yourself don't know how it is you really feel about something, it is not fair of you to somehow make that MY issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I think you feel that it's your responsibility to make yourself understood by others. I think most people feel that way though and when they can't, it can be frustrating for them.
    I know this intimately. Did you not read my blurb about the social misunderstandings I've run into?

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    There are also people who simply don't know how they feel.
    Doubtlessly! They're human, and I empathize with their struggles and I will accommodate as best I can but it is their responsibility to sort their emotions out, not mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I find it particularly curious for this argument to be coming from an ISFJ Enneagram 9 because I don't think a person with a combination of these types would generally be on the high end of the spectrum of understanding how they feel or why.
    That's probably because I'm not advocating that we shouldn't try to accept or under each other. You created that assumption about me. What I *have* been REPEATEDLY stating is that I can't ultimately be held responsible for people giving me bad signals or information because they themselves are confused and I'm ASKING that people who are in that emotional state of flux (for whatever reason) at least acknowledge that.

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    An Fi dom, on average, would tend to have a much better understanding of their own internal states of emotion and how they feel about something. It's what they do. From what I have seen however, on average, they seem to have a harder time expressing those things in a way that is obvious or easy for others to understand.
    That very well may be true...but I simply fail to understand why that's somehow my problem. Again, I will do my best to accommodate them and try to work with whatever information they can give me, but if I'm not giving them what they want, there is only so much I am willing to take responsibility for but I would ask them to concede that if they themselves don't know how to express this in way that is, as you put it, "easy or obvious for others to understand" then there is truly only so much I can do.

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Can you see how what you are saying creates bias against them? I don't know if I can explain this more clearly because it seems as obvious as the nose on my face.
    I understand what you're stating but I think this "bias" you're talking about is at best a misunderstanding of what it is I've been trying to say and at worst a red herring.

    What prompted this WHOLE mini-debate we'e been having was my response to an INFP stating that her ISFJ mom "didn't get her". I had responded that this was a sediment that I often read about Intuitives who have ISFJ parents and I had stated, (REPEATEDLY NOW) that we can only work with the information we're given and all these Intuitives need to own up to the possibility that they themselves have some responsibility in why this continues to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    When I was in college, I went out with an Fi dom (ISFP). I would get frustrated because she didn't express herself and I felt it was important to do that in a relationship. I believe I was critical and thought she should change her behavior. It was quite unfair of me to do that regardless as to what universally applied standard might exist as to how someone is supposed to express themselves. I should have been more patient and accepting of her in that way.
    Without knowing WHAT exactly it was she was doing, I would argue that while yes you should have been more understand, SHE had to take the responsibility for her actions and recognize that she herself may have contributed to the relationship's downfall by not knowing what she wanted or how to express herself meaningfully to you. In fact, a lot of relationships break apart precisely because the people involved don't really know what it is.

    I really love this one-sided special treatment that you almost seem to be implying that Fi-users should get. As an Fe-user I should have to be more accommodating but they're not required to understand and recognize just how confusing they may be presenting themselves and work to try and better that? Does that seem fair to you?

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Sometimes it's very hard for people with Fi to even identify what their feelings are.
    I get that, and I suppose this is why Fe-users can get really patronizing to Fi-users because we can tell

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    It may not be easily expressable, as there may simply be no words or behaviors that accurately portray the nuances of what we are experiencing internally. It's akin to how Si and Ni can be challenging to articulate. In the everyday formal world, we generally do fine at navigating, but it becomes much harder when we are dealing with very important, emotional matters like family and intimate relationships.
    I can understand that

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    So it may be the Fi user's responsibility to express their personal feelings, especially if they expect others to respond to those feelings, but it is not the Fi user's fault that their internal language is not so easily translated to the external world, and as such we may need to ask a little extra patience of Fe users who are much quicker to be able to express what they mean.
    I can agree to this and I'm not at all against patience with your partner. What I, as the Fe-user, would request is that the Fi-user equally understand is that we're doing the best we can with the information you're giving us information that's faulty or confusing then I would humbly ask you guys to be patient with us

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I often have to ask my ISFJ to be patient with me as I muck through my own feelings. Recently I have taken to Googling pictures or music in an attempt to convey what I lack in words.
    That sounds incredibly cute

    If I may make a suggestion: Try describing a scenario in which what you're thinking or feeling about plays out in a real life situation. That could help place your thoughts and feelings in some sort of context.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I think this is worth noting. FPs can unintentionally behave in ways that mean something to Fe users. I think that a lot of that has to do with Fe being purposeful and Fi being less so. Fe always acts with a goal, essentially, and reads Fi users' external language as if it is acted out with a goal in mind, too, even though it often is not.
    I think this is ESPECIALLY worth noting and also I personally feel you may have just bridged the Fi-Fe divide

    This is what I mean by confusing actions. To you Fi-users your methods expression may be disconnected some some sort of coherent meaning but when we read it, we're trying to assign a pattern to it and...the results aren't always pretty.

    Well done dear
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

  10. #80
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    It's not that we shouldn't try to be more accepting or understanding, is thats people should understand that communication is a two way street and that there is only so much I can do.
    Agreed. I don't think anyone is saying that communication isn’t a two way street or critiquing what you can or cannot do.

    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    I will try to accommodate and discern your methods as best I can but ultimately it's on you. I've said this a dozen times now and apparently I need to keep repeating myself but: I can only work with the information I've got and you are sending me false or incorrect information because you yourself don't know how it is you really feel about something, it is not fair of you to somehow make that MY issue.
    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    That very well may be true...but I simply fail to understand why that's somehow my problem. Again, I will do my best to accommodate them and try to work with whatever information they can give me, but if I'm not giving them what they want, there is only so much I am willing to take responsibility for but I would ask them to concede that if they themselves don't know how to express this in way that is, as you put it, "easy or obvious for others to understand" then there is truly only so much I can do.
    It's fascinating how you think it should be your issue. I never said it is. I don't think the Fi user thinks it is or should be. Maybe that's part of the problem. It's part of your identity to try and understand other people and if you can't because they are giving out what you perceive to be “confusing signals” then it causes you distress, which is why you keep emphasizing that it's their problem if they can't communicate properly. They don't even think there is a problem lol. They just don't think they are on the same wavelength as you.

    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    What prompted this WHOLE mini-debate we'e been having was my response to an INFP stating that her ISFJ mom "didn't get her". I had responded that this was a sediment that I often read about Intuitives who have ISFJ parents and I had stated, (REPEATEDLY NOW) that we can only work with the information we're given and all these Intuitives need to own up to the possibility that they themselves have some responsibility in why this continues to happen.
    Of course. Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    Without knowing WHAT exactly it was she was doing, I would argue that while yes you should have been more understand, SHE had to take the responsibility for her actions and recognize that she herself may have contributed to the relationship's downfall by not knowing what she wanted or how to express herself meaningfully to you.
    She just had a hard time communicating verbally how she was feeling. She couldn't translate what was going on inside of her head/heart into words. An example of a conversation - me asking questions, her saying a little and me reading mostly her facial expressions. It seems unusual now that I think back on it. It's how she was though and actually, I did get to be pretty good at reading her mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    I really love this one-sided special treatment that you almost seem to be implying that Fi-users should get. As an Fe-user I should have to be more accommodating but they're not required to understand and recognize just how confusing they may be presenting themselves and work to try and better that? Does that seem fair to you?
    This is so funny. I've heard this "one-sided special treatment" many times and I never really quite get it. It’s their responsibility to express themselves in a way so that you can understand them. If they can’t, then it’s a problem because they are confusing and it’s important because you want to understand them. I think it’s a lot more important to you that you understand them than it is for them to be understood by you.

    I’m not trying to give you a hard time. I just think the whole way you think about the issue is interesting and completely illustrative of the difference between Fe and Fi, so thanks for participating in the dialogue.

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