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  1. #61
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    I agree but it almost sounds like we're talking about mind reading here.

    And I know that having this ability would be beneficial in a relationship, but it can't be a good idea to continue in, or enable someone else to continue in, a pattern of their actions (external) not matching their intentions (internal)? Maybe there's a healthy middle ground here and we're talking about S vs N stuff but it seems like a line should be drawn somewhere if these two things are constantly contradictory.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    What?
    What I mean is intentions are good but that good intentions are not enough to lead to a pattern of actions. So, I was agreeing with you. I think it is helpful to understand the internal motivations though because it helps you to get to more of the core of the issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post

    They need to learn how to express them! Don't ask me how to get them to do that, I'm trying to get people in my life to do it.

    But, seriously, if there are no conflicts or upsets, then I would assume they are happy and have nothing bad to express. Not expressing the good is a problem though.
    They won't express them though because they don't like conflict or being too expressive of their internal emotions. They probably do feel pretty happy but yes, not expressing the good is a problem.

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  2. #62
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    What I mean is intentions are good but that good intentions are not enough to lead to a pattern of actions. So, I was agreeing with you. I think it is helpful to understand the internal motivations though because it helps you to get to more of the core of the issue.
    IME, SOME people just enjoy ruminating for the sake of ruminating. Maybe you can call them dreamers but they've developed the habit of living in their head over time and it doesn't occur to them that there are actions that need to be taken, especially when it comes to other people who are looking to them for something or when something needs to get done. This may sound extreme but I've seen it. I think everyone has a video playing in their head but you have to share that with others if you want real intimacy with them. This is the lesser of the evils though, imo, but still frustrating sometimes.

    This is not the same as people who hold their feelings in which is something ISFJs and INFPs both do, even though they may want to express them. In this case they hold them in because they don't feel safe and secure enough to express them.

    And then there are people who, I hate to say it, have nothing to express. They don't feel much of anything, or rather, their emotions look more like grayscale than rainbow. I would hope that ISFJs don't ever fall into this category though.

    anyways, now I'm just feeling tired and loopy and am just rambling.

  3. #63
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Be sour when opening a gift from an SFJ and you sure can make them very sad and even frustrated, especially when they think you'll be so delighted. So who wants to be the cause of that? My Mom will get defensive that she "tried so hard" and my MIL will jump up, ready with the gift receipt to help "fix" the gift issue and make you "happy" again.
    Ah, yeah, I'm familiar with this. My ESFJ mom has always been one to exchange the gifts - she's a super-practical person, heavier on Je than Fe if that makes sense - and she's not particularly emotional about gifts. But I accidentally really hurt my ISFJ's feelings once when he baked me brownies, and I complained that I'd asked him not to give me food presents because I was dieting at the time. It was a really sweet gesture, and he prefers girls to be thick/curvy anyway, so now I recognize that "written in" the gift was the message of "I love your body the way it is and think you should treat yourself". But at the time it seemed like an awful gift, because it threw me into the internal conflict of being appreciative, eating the brownies, and feeling guilt, or being cold, not eating the brownies, and not feeling guilt.

    To be fair, I also gave him a flower (chosen for its specific meaning) once, because I was proud of him for a major accomplishment and wanted to give him something little to indicate that, and later he told me that he was sort of baffled by the gift, lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly
    Guilty.

    (Did I oversimplify that?)


    Quote Originally Posted by highlander
    So how about this question. What if you have an ISFJ 9 parent raising an ISFJ 9 child. Neither is particularly emotionally expressive (unlike the ISFJ 2 SX). They are all nice and pleasant to each other all the time and not really expressive of their emotions - neither bad nor good. Conflicts are avoided and there are few upsets. Emotions just aren't expressed in the house. How can they understand what each other is feeling then?
    If you don't mind me butting in - I've talked to my ISFJ about emotions a fair amount (he's a 9w1, I'm fairly sure), since I'm emotionally very heavy and volatile, while he's emotionally very stable, and he explained to me in the car the other day that emotions to him are pretty clear-cut and obvious - he doesn't really ever feel emotional ambiguity - and they're not really all that powerful in terms of changing his mind or perspective. So I think emotional expression is not really all that important to him. He expresses enjoyment when he likes something and expresses distaste when he doesn't, but I think his feelings are often just experienced and channeled in a different medium than internal emotion. It's almost more like a quality of energy, like his energy is very loose and free when he's happy but it's very tight-wound and jittery when he's unhappy. With my mom - ESFJ 2w1 sp/so - too, it's like she's really engaging and open when she's happy and tight-lipped and tired-looking when she's unhappy, but I don't think she's particularly emotional internally. They're beautiful, colorful people inside, when you look at their wishes and dreams and hopes and creative ideas, just not very emotional people. Perhaps the same could be true for the ISFJ 9s you know?

    But, that said, I think that probably some feeling would end up getting swept under the rug and repressed in that situation, and can lead to really deeply-buried wounds and lasting tensions that are never exposed and dealt with. And like Giggly said, it would be better to voice the good.

  4. #64
    Member Hecuba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    Ironically, I have not meet an NFP who's read me correctly. I feel more understood by NFJs and SF's.
    This friend had read me well, except for on one major occasion. He was the one who typed me, but he wasn't aware that I am a 6! Maybe he did, but I don't remember. I hate to say it but I miss him terribly, I find myself reaching out for this missing friend at night. I've been crying softly in my sleep. I am not sure if he knows this, but I never let go of a friend and I would destroy a mountain if I need to get back to this friend. It would take a nuclear Holocaust to get rid of me and if so I will still be there for all of my friends in the spirit sense. Yeah, can't get rid of me.

  5. #65
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hecuba View Post
    I am not sure if he knows this, but I never let go of a friend and I would destroy a mountain if I need to get back to this friend. It would take a nuclear Holocaust to get rid of me and if so I will still be there for all of my friends in the spirit sense. Yeah, can't get rid of me.
    It's completely irrelevant to the topic of thread, but good to hear another 6 say that. I still feel that way with people I was friends with as a little kid, in high school, in college, in my first few years of working, etc. Not everyone is like this though and because they look at things through their own lens, they don't have any idea that others would be that way.

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  6. #66
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    What I THINK I need is not what I NEED. Love it. It's true of course. The thing is what the ISFJ thinks I need is not what I necessarily need either. Maybe it is the ENFPs that know
    No, it's not, but I take issue with this idea that people who don't even know how to properly express their own feelings/know what it is they are really feeling or really want have any business lecturing me on how I'm not "getting" them It feels to me like they're trying to make their problem mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    So how about this question. What if you have an ISFJ 9 parent raising an ISFJ 9 child. Neither is particularly emotionally expressive (unlike the ISFJ 2 SX). They are all nice and pleasant to each other all the time and not really expressive of their emotions - neither bad nor good. Conflicts are avoided and there are few upsets. Emotions just aren't expressed in the house. How can they understand what each other is feeling then?
    This situation sounds like a pouder-keg to me. These two are probably going to either get along extremely well or they're going to talk past each other, over-compensate to avoid offending each other, and we inevitably wind up resentful of the other. One of the two is going to have to grow a pair of balls and TALK

    Sorry, little blunt there, but it's the truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Yes, that is what I see. There is the acceptable and the unacceptable evaluation of your emotions, which I find unacceptable . Seriously, I hope I'm not coming off as negative about ISFJs. I think they're awesome - even more than awesome. There are things which can drive you a little crazy about any person.
    I don't think you are. If memory serves, I recall you stating you were involved with one. Anyone willing to sleep with an ISFJ get's an 'A' in my book
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  7. #67
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    No, it's not, but I take issue with this idea that people who don't even know how to properly express their own feelings/know what it is they are really feeling or really want have any business lecturing me on how I'm not "getting" them It feels to me like they're trying to make their problem mine.
    I find it interesting that you use the word "properly". That sounds pretty Fe. If I look at the difference between an INFP and an ISFJ, that Fi/Fe difference is a big one. The other big one I see is Ne being #2 in the stack for the INFP and #4 in the stack for ISFJ (and thus not trusted).

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  8. #68
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I find it interesting that you use the word "properly". That sounds pretty Fe. If I look at the difference between an INFP and an ISFJ, that Fi/Fe difference is a big one. The other big one I see is Ne being #2 in the stack for the INFP and #4 in the stack for ISFJ (and thus not trusted).
    I'm sure it is very Fe and to further add another Fe statement: While I understand what you're saying, I don't see how what you said refutes what I said or renders it false or incorrect.

    I stand by my statement. If you don't know how or what it is you're feeling and you either don't know or how to articulate or express that emotion in a meaningful way then that's your problem and not mine. I will try to understand and accommodate as best I can, but I'm not a mind reader.
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
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  9. #69
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    I'm sure it is very Fe and to further add another Fe statement: While I understand what you're saying, I don't see how what you said refutes what I said or renders it false or incorrect.

    I stand by my statement. If you don't know how or what it is you're feeling and you either don't know or how to articulate or express that emotion in a meaningful way then that's your problem and not mine. I will try to understand and accommodate as best I can, but I'm not a mind reader.
    I don't agree. It's just the way someone is. Your comment comes across as not accepting the other person for who they are and saying they should act differently. That would bother an INFP. That would bother me.

    If you don't "get" someone or if some people understand other people better than others then that is a simple fact. It is not a negative judgment applied to you.

    How well do you think you understand and express your own emotions in a meaningful way? You're an ISFJ Enneagram 9.

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  10. #70
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I don't agree. It's just the way someone is. Your comment comes across as not accepting the other person for who they are and saying they should act differently. That would bother an INFP. That would bother me.

    If you don't "get" someone or if some people understand other people better than others then that is a simple fact. It is not a negative judgment applied to you.

    How well do you think you understand and express your own emotions in a meaningful way? You're an ISFJ Enneagram 9.
    You're missing the point. I'm not talking about "accepting someone for as they are" or anything like that. What I'm talking about is a disconnect between how a person really feels about something and how it is they are choosing to express it. If you tell me that you're upset about something but you don't express discontent, I can't be held responsible for that. Your actions need to match your words.

    I know this is going to sound incredibly judgmental and Fe-like, but I do believe that, by and large, there is a pretty universal standard for how it is to express and communicate feelings. Some people may do more quietly or more forcefully than others but by and large there are universal traits that everyone recognizes. If you're happy, you smile. If you're angry, you'll scowl or raise your voice or other such examples. Everyone may have their own little pet ways of expressing and doing things (however ambiguous they may or may not be) and everyone has their own eccentricities and in that case it's a matter of understanding that particular individual. But...again, if your actions aren't matching your words, then I can't be blamed for misunderstanding you.

    As an ISFJ 9w1 sx/sp, the only times I ever feel like I'm not getting more point across is when I'm afraid of creating conflict and you know what? That's my problem and not the problem the people around me. If they are doing something that can create conflict with me, then I need to speak up and express that it's bother me. If I choose not to do that then I bear full responsibility as I can't reasonably expect them to accomodate me if I don't give them a chance too.

    I work in the real estate business and I talk to dozens and dozens of people everyday and they understand me very well. Maybe this is because I'm an SJ, maybe it's because I have mild Asperger's Syndrome, but I am *quite* literal and blunt about my opinions and the only people who seem to have a difficult time understanding me are people who hear the things I say and choose to read things into them that I didn't say.

    An exception to everything I've said: If you have some sort of mental or mood disorder. At that point, I don't think it's fair to expect someone to act to be able to understand or express themselves meaningfully as they can't help the fact that their brains aren't working correctly.
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