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  1. #51
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    I should add too, that I do talk to my Mom about this stuff. The reason I know what gifts she was going to give is because she bounces them off me first! Thank heavens for that, I can help with being able to predict what the inner reactions are likely to be from the potential gift recipients! And then, she comes up with ideas that suit her and the other person better, and she's happy because the other person is happy when they open their present and life is good.

    Anytime I need to vent on a person-topic, my Mom is the best commiserator hands-down! (But I do have to be careful or she'll think that the person I am complaining about is a jerk for life!)

    At any rate, I could wax on about the positive, but as usual the highlighting of the negative has over-shadowed that and only makes me look like I am back-pedaling, so I do apologize overall for that. The internet is not the best venue for discussing such matters, I fear. I just don't have the patience to structure it all in that perfect way to minimize confusion or offense all the time.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
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    When people see some things as good,
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    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  2. #52
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    Sweetie, I was trying to be humorous I assure you I took no offense what-so-ever to what you said

    It was partially in relation to what you said and a sediment that was presenting itself in this thread and something I run into a lot with Intuitives. ISFJs, particularily ISFJ women, are often characterized as not being stupid but simple so I was trying to take a jab at that (even I'm not an ISFJ woman)
    Oh haha sorry!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hecuba View Post


    Well, for me it's always the heightened sense of fear and uncertainty and my unwillingness to accept and lay complete trust in fate, it's not that I do not trust my friends, in fact I very much do but I am generally very distrustful of the world in general. My mind enjoys to run with every worst case scenario possibility, it's always the glass half-empty and I know it's an unhealthy way to look at life. I am always vigilant and watchful if not in an overbearing manner much to the annoyance of a lot of people. I can understand why this would hurt an INFP who the friend I have in mind is. People do not like to be guarded all of the time...
    Ahh, yes, protectiveness. It's one of my favorite things about my ISFJ, he's very protective of me. I see what you mean, 6 vigilance plus Si close attentiveness to the present situation and FJ desire to take care of others. You must be a wonderful guardian, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I did pounce on you here, and I've been thinking about it this afternoon too.

    Comments like that do raise my hackles somewhat because my Mom is not simple or a hick for lacking a post-secondary education. Nor does it convince me that a liberal, "educated" ISFJ is inherently more attuned to giving great gifts. I'm not sure why it would make any difference, honestly. But I am happy for your experience though! Very much so.

    She does take some unwarranted flack, so I did jump up to defend that.

    I know you don't hatez the ISFJ's - but let's be clear, neither do I. I was a little hard on you and you're right, I didn't think you meant what you said in any evil way.

    So I do extend an apology for pouncing on that.
    Well, apology accepted, thanks.

    What I said really wasn't meant to have much to do with your mom at all, so I'm sorry too if it came off like I was trying to insult her, because that definitely wasn't the intention. When I said that, I had no idea what her education level was. I'm sorry she's caught flack for it in the past, and I seriously doubt that post-secondary education has anything to do with her gift-giving habits.

    I simply get tired of having my opinion invalidated. I mean great, my experience isn't your experience, but it is mine, so I grow weary of expecting to do "damage control" for sharing my actual feelings on the topic.
    Huh. Well, I certainly didn't mean to invalidate your opinion. I don't think I have.

    Your mom is an ISFJ and your mom tends to focus more on the act and importance of gift-giving than the way the individual gifts will make people feel inside. That's interesting on its own and in particular to me because it also aligns with my impression that ISFJs are very attentive to external feelings but not always internal ones, which also correlates with highlander's impression that ISFJs don't always understand his Fi.

  3. #53
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I do not think it is characteristic of ISFJs to think that it's more important to give something than to try hard to give something that others will appreciate. When an ISFJ gives a gift, it is probably more based on what they experientially know the person to like (ie, having directly seen or heard the person demonstrating their enjoyment) in addition to what they feel would be beneficial for them. When an INFP gives a gift, it is probably more based on their conceptual idea of the person ("this person is like this") in addition to what they feel would resonate with their internal emotions.
    Ah I see you added this.

    My Mom does try to extrapolate what people will like based on their external circumstance, but the external reaction desired is one of happiness regardless of the gift, and this helps feed her happiness (which I am going to add isn't really selfish in that it's the way Fe is wired).

    Having an ISFJ mom and an ESFJ MIL, I know that the charade of being happy when opening any gift is highly anticipated and even expected, so it's much nicer to be genuinely happy than fake-happy. Be sour when opening a gift from an SFJ and you sure can make them very sad and even frustrated, especially when they think you'll be so delighted. So who wants to be the cause of that? My Mom will get defensive that she "tried so hard" and my MIL will jump up, ready with the gift receipt to help "fix" the gift issue and make you "happy" again.

    And hey, maybe I'm to blame too because I don't want to be the bringer of rain to the parade, so I don't say how I really feel to begin with. But, it's because I've seen what happens when I (and others) do though, and I've made the assessment that most of the time, it's just not worth it.

    So I don't think it's about SFJ's being misunderstood at all. It's about understanding perfectly - I know what's expected, so it's easier to head it off, quite frankly, and help my Mom (and MIL) give gifts that people have a better shot at feeling thrilled with. That fosters the win-win. Does it make me some sort of enabler? Yes. My Mom has given gifts to family members that have literally left the recipients in tears afterward, torn between feeling happy for the act of the gift but grossly misunderstood in terms of the actual content of the gift. So, I do that 9-thing, peacemaker.

    Anyways, thanks for all of your thoughts. I'll chime out of this thread for a bit and regroup. Do feel free though to comment more, I will likely respond tomorrow.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  4. #54
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    Damn.

    After all these years, ISFJs are finally gettin some love.


  5. #55
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Damn.

    After all these years, ISFJs are finally gettin some love.

    INORITE!?!?!

    Bring on the hugglepuffs!
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

  6. #56
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    Bring on the hugglepuffs!


    ISFJ characteristics.  What sets you apart?-isfj-jpg

    isfj.jpg
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  7. #57
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    I'm down with the hugs.

  8. #58
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    I would have to agree that I am not very good at reading the innermost workings of an individual and of judging people by their past experiences but...really...if you're not willing to tell me these things, what else do I've got to go on? If you're willing to tell me what you need then I'll accommodate as best I can. If I'm misunderstanding you it's because your behavior is contradictory to the information you are giving me and I see that as more your problem and less mine.

    If you're unwilling to discuss your feelings or if you yourself don't know quite how you feel about something, I don't think it's fair to hold me responsible for making false assumptions about why you're doing things. I'm doing the best I can with the information I've got

    ETA: Also, what you may think you need may in fact NOT be what you in fact actually need
    What I THINK I need is not what I NEED. Love it. It's true of course. The thing is what the ISFJ thinks I need is not what I necessarily need either. Maybe it is the ENFPs that know

    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    I agree but it almost sounds like we're talking about mind reading here.

    And I know that having this ability would be beneficial in a relationship, but it can't be a good idea to continue in, or enable someone else to continue in, a pattern of their actions (external) not matching their intentions (internal)? Maybe there's a healthy middle ground here and we're talking about S vs N stuff but it seems like a line should be drawn somewhere if these two things are constantly contradictory.
    Yes it is mind reading. But I thought that is what women want men to do?

    The path to hell was paved with good intentions, that is for sure.

    So how about this question. What if you have an ISFJ 9 parent raising an ISFJ 9 child. Neither is particularly emotionally expressive (unlike the ISFJ 2 SX). They are all nice and pleasant to each other all the time and not really expressive of their emotions - neither bad nor good. Conflicts are avoided and there are few upsets. Emotions just aren't expressed in the house. How can they understand what each other is feeling then?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I If I don't externally exude emotions, nothing is known. Her ability to internally gauge where I'm at is extremely limited. The strange irony to me is that there are acceptable and unacceptable emotions. As an emotionally wired youngster with two SJ parents, I learned very young to simply hide my emotional reactions because it was too painful to share them and have them judged for appropriateness.
    Yes, that is what I see. There is the acceptable and the unacceptable evaluation of your emotions, which I find unacceptable . Seriously, I hope I'm not coming off as negative about ISFJs. I think they're awesome - even more than awesome. There are things which can drive you a little crazy about any person.

    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    Ditto. My ENFJ-ex gets me better than anyone else I know
    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    Ironically, I have not meet an NFP who's read me correctly. I feel more understood by NFJs and SF's.
    I can think of an ENFP that would be able to it. She does read minds.

    So, Fe types generally get you better. @Giggly, I think I get you pretty well sometimes but then I'm just guessing most of the time so....

    ALso, sometimes you have to say things even if you know it might bother a person.

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  9. #59
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    There's a tendency to oversimplify in order to explain though. Some of it is because there is no reference point & she's trying to create one because that's how Si types approach things.
    Guilty.

    (Did I oversimplify that?)

  10. #60
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    The path to hell was paved with good intentions, that is for sure.
    What?

    So how about this question. What if you have an ISFJ 9 parent raising an ISFJ 9 child. Neither is particularly emotionally expressive (unlike the ISFJ 2 SX). They are all nice and pleasant to each other all the time and not really expressive of their emotions - neither bad nor good. Conflicts are avoided and there are few upsets. Emotions just aren't expressed in the house. How can they understand what each other is feeling then?
    They need to learn how to express them! Don't ask me how to get them to do that, I'm trying to get people in my life to do it.

    But, seriously, if there are no conflicts or upsets, then I would assume they are happy and have nothing bad to express. Not expressing the good is a problem though.

    I can think of an ENFP that would be able to it. She does read minds.
    Umm, no comment. lol

    So, Fe types generally get you better. Giggly, I think I get you pretty well sometimes but then I'm just guessing most of the time so....
    Okay but SF also includes SFP's too.

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