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  1. #41
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I think that captures things really well. So if an INFP or INTJ doesn't express their inner states or emotions then the ISFJ can't pick up on how they are feeling. ENFPs don't have that problem. They can't help but tell you what they're feeling.
    Thanks, and yes, exactly!

    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    I would have to agree that I am not very good at reading the innermost workings of an individual and of judging people by their past experiences but...really...if you're not willing to tell me these things, what else do I've got to go on? If you're willing to tell me what you need then I'll accommodate as best I can. If I'm misunderstanding you it's because your behavior is contradictory to the information you are giving me and I see that as more your problem and less mine.

    If you're unwilling to discuss your feelings or if you yourself don't know quite how you feel about something, I don't think it's fair to hold me responsible for making false assumptions about why you're doing things. I'm doing the best I can with the information I've got

    ETA: Also, what you may think you need may in fact NOT be what you in fact actually need
    You sound like my ISFJ! These are all fair points, imo. NFPs tend to see things differently because we struggle to read anything but the emotional undercurrents. So much so that sometimes someone can harbor an emotion / "feeling tone" that's in their head for whatever reason but not directed at us personally, but we can feel it, and we can misinterpret that it's directed at us. I think that's why we're so sensitive sometimes. Whereas you guys seem to be sensitive in the sense that you're acutely aware of the feelings others are extraverting.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    @highlander;@skylights: I align more with highlander's descriptions on the ISFJ.
    Edit - I removed some text that obviously came across wrong.

    My point was that I disagree.

  2. #42
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    You sound like my ISFJ! These are all fair points, imo. NFPs tend to see things differently because we struggle to read anything but the emotional undercurrents. So much so that sometimes someone can harbor an emotion / "feeling tone" that's in their head for whatever reason but not directed at us personally, but we can feel it, and we can misinterpret that it's directed at us. I think that's why we're so sensitive sometimes. Whereas you guys seem to be sensitive in the sense that you're acutely aware of the feelings others are extraverting.
    I can see that. I imagine that's the difference between Fi and Fe in usage with Ni/Ne.

    I'd be curious to see how INFJs, being Ni-doms instead of Si-doms, would compare to ISFJs in this particular matter.
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

  3. #43
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    Ironically, I have not meet an NFP who's read me correctly. I feel more understood by NFJs and SF's.
    I wouldn't say that I read my mom, but rather I understand what she means when she speaks better. I don't understand in that I necessarily relate, I just grasp feelings I DON'T have better than my mom does. I give her tons of credit in working hard to grasp those she cares about; she will bend over backwards to accommodate those who are important to her. There's a tendency to oversimplify in order to explain though. Some of it is because there is no reference point & she's trying to create one because that's how Si types approach things.

    INFPs easily feel misunderstood though, and it's not all in our heads nor is it about thinking we're special. It's that lack of concrete & external reference points that causes this & some of it is our own burden to learn to articulate difficult things. That's why we'll rely heavily on metaphor. I've found this successful in communicating with my ISFJ mom, but I often go through like 4-5 metaphors & she has to think about it for awhile, then it clicks & she'll validate my feeling through her accommodation of it. Growing up though, I was frequently invalidated, and as Peace Baby mentions, I hid my feelings a lot. In my case, I hid how I felt to the point of being accused of coldness & being entirely unfeeling.

    However, I'm good at taking a statement from someone, including my mom, and identifying the deeper feeling behind it, the sort of core REASON for an emotion or value. It's not mind-reading at all; it's knowing human emotional makeup by having made yourself a case study & then taking verbalized or behavioral clues from others & using that very basic, general model to simulate their specific experience. I'm not always right of course, but you could call them very educated guesses that are tested in a kind of internal emotional laboratory, not some psychic ability.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  4. #44
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    My experience has just been really different. My environment has generally been liberal and education-heavy, so that may have an impact. Just like NFPs can either be benevolent and enlightened or kooky, spacey pains-in-the-asses.


    So, my Mom is the way she is because she's not liberal or educated? Is that what I'm hearing here? My Mom is many things, but stupid she is not.

    It sure sounds like you are saying it takes education, intelligence and culture to help an ISFJ be less ... ISFJ'y? Ouch.

    Ya, I feel some subtle disapproval of my less-than-glowing portrayal of the stuff I find challenging about my ISFJ Mom. And now, we're going down that familiar road where just because I have shared negative information, folks are extrapolating that I must think this about EVERY ISFJ. Holy cowzers!

    My Mom is a point on a continuum, not the poster child for ISFJ's everywhere. Valuable insight can be gained, however, from looking at the points farther from the center. We can agree on that, no?

    Soon, I can expect someone to come in and tell me I have flaws too. And of course I do!
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  5. #45
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post


    So, my Mom is the way she is because she's not liberal or educated? Is that what I'm hearing here? My Mom is many things, but stupid she is not.

    It sure sounds like you are saying it takes education, intelligence and culture to help an ISFJ be less ... ISFJ'y? Ouch.

    Ya, I feel some subtle disapproval of my less-than-glowing portrayal of the stuff I find challenging about my ISFJ Mom. And now, we're going down that familiar road where just because I have shared negative information, folks are extrapolating that I must think this about EVERY ISFJ. Holy cowzers!

    My Mom is a point on a continuum, not the poster child for ISFJ's everywhere. Valuable insight can be gained, however, from looking at the points farther from the center. We can agree on that, no?

    Soon, I can expect someone to come in and tell me I have flaws too. And of course I do!
    A few things

    1) I was actually going to try and think of some way to smoothly flirt with you but I'm too sleepy/depressed to do that right now so I'm operating at 20% snark right now

    2) Rereading the prior posts, I supposed I could take offense to to the whole "ISFJs need more liberal/academic education in order to be as sharp/witty/smart/nifty as us smarty-pants N-types else they are doomed to an existence of Dr.Phil-Oprah-house cleaning mediocrity!!" but really I just took that as the usual sort of alienation I've heard N's reported when dealing with Sensor parents so I didn't take it personally. If anything, I feel it's unfortunate that ISFJ parents often fail so often at understanding their N children as well as they can. It makes me wonder how I'll treat my kids if any of them are Intuitives.

    3) I am so ready to go home, having a very slow day and an hour left. BORED.
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

  6. #46
    Member Hecuba's Avatar
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    I don't like to sound emo, or self-absorbed but being an ISFJ with a strong Enneagram 6 SUCKS -- no wonder people think I have got trust issues.

  7. #47
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hecuba
    I don't like to sound emo, or self-absorbed but being an ISFJ with a strong Enneagram 6 SUCKS -- no wonder people think I have got trust issues.
    Being a 6 is hard, I know! What things about ISFJness in combination with 6 are difficult together?

    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683
    Quote Originally Posted by skylights
    You sound like my ISFJ! These are all fair points, imo. NFPs tend to see things differently because we struggle to read anything but the emotional undercurrents. So much so that sometimes someone can harbor an emotion / "feeling tone" that's in their head for whatever reason but not directed at us personally, but we can feel it, and we can misinterpret that it's directed at us. I think that's why we're so sensitive sometimes. Whereas you guys seem to be sensitive in the sense that you're acutely aware of the feelings others are extraverting.

    I can see that. I imagine that's the difference between Fi and Fe in usage with Ni/Ne.

    I'd be curious to see how INFJs, being Ni-doms instead of Si-doms, would compare to ISFJs in this particular matter.
    Me too! If any INFJs happen to be reading this

    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    2) Rereading the prior posts, I supposed I could take offense to to the whole "ISFJs need more liberal/academic education in order to be as sharp/witty/smart/nifty as us smarty-pants N-types else they are doomed to an existence of Dr.Phil-Oprah-house cleaning mediocrity!!" but really I just took that as the usual sort of alienation I've heard N's reported when dealing with Sensor parents so I didn't take it personally. If anything, I feel it's unfortunate that ISFJ parents often fail so often at understanding their N children as well as they can. It makes me wonder how I'll treat my kids if any of them are Intuitives.
    If you're referring to what I said, I didn't mean to imply that ISFJs in particular need more education or liberalism, and I apologize if that's how it came off. My point was that anyone can be impacted by those two factors, and the ISFJs in others' lives might be less open as a result of those factors - as opposed to because of anything inherent to ISFJness.

    As for parents, at least personally, I've always felt more understood by my ESFJ mom than my INTP dad. If anything, I felt more alienated by FeTi-FiTe differences than N-S. Many people have told me I'm a particularly Fe-ish ENFP, and I assume it's because I was raised in an entirely Fe household.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    So, my Mom is the way she is because she's not liberal or educated? Is that what I'm hearing here? My Mom is many things, but stupid she is not.
    I think there has been a misunderstanding here.

    No, that was not the point at all, nor the implication. I just don't think she's a good representative of ISFJs in terms of gift-giving. And yes, she might be less educated or less liberal. Neither of those things mean stupid. They simply correlate with less openness.

    It sure sounds like you are saying it takes education, intelligence and culture to help an ISFJ be less ... ISFJ'y? Ouch.
    "Ouch"! Yes, evil skylights, inflicting her evil ISFJ-hating views on the thread!

    Why would I even want ISFJs to be less ISFJy? My SO is an ISFJ. If I didn't like his characteristics, I wouldn't be with him.

    Ya, I feel some subtle disapproval of my less-than-glowing portrayal of the stuff I find challenging about my ISFJ Mom. And now, we're going down that familiar road where just because I have shared negative information, folks are extrapolating that I must think this about EVERY ISFJ. Holy cowzers!
    Not every ISFJ. Many. You were saying that you agreed with highlander's impression, which to me sounded more stereotypical and less what was true to my experience with ISFJs. Again, I do not think your mom is a good representation of ISFJs in terms of gift-giving. And I commented that highlander's perception of ISFJs being less perceptive of others' feelings is probably a result of Fe-Fi barrier, as opposed to a characteristic inherent to ISFJs.

    However, my pool of interaction with ISFJs is limited. I have had a handful of friends over the years I believe are ISFJs, a coworker or two, and just a few self-confirmed ISFJs. The ISFJ I draw most of my understanding from is my boyfriend, who is very liberal and very intellectual (as in reads huge texts, spends a large amount of time per day taking in information, etc, not just "smart"), so I might be biased in that way.

    To sum up, and give my opinion to @Ayelless, I do not think it is characteristic of ISFJs to be oblivious to feelings. I believe that a core characteristic of ISFJs is that they are very good at reading externally-directed feeling messages, such as when others are desiring something to happen in the environment, or when others are trying to communicate something, whereas INFPs are better at reading internal emotional states. I believe that a core characteristic of ISFJs is that they heavily utilize the knowledge gained from their past experiences to make decisions, whereas INFPs are more likely to rely on theoretical/conceptual understanding to make decisions.

    I do not think it is characteristic of ISFJs to think that it's more important to give something than to try hard to give something that others will appreciate. When an ISFJ gives a gift, it is probably more based on what they experientially know the person to like (ie, having directly seen or heard the person demonstrating their enjoyment) in addition to what they feel would be beneficial for them. When an INFP gives a gift, it is probably more based on their conceptual idea of the person ("this person is like this") in addition to what they feel would resonate with their internal emotions.

  8. #48
    Member Hecuba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Being a 6 is hard, I know! What things about ISFJness in combination with 6 are difficult together?


    Well, for me it's always the heightened sense of fear and uncertainty and my unwillingness to accept and lay complete trust in fate, it's not that I do not trust my friends, in fact I very much do but I am generally very distrustful of the world in general. My mind enjoys to run with every worst case scenario possibility, it's always the glass half-empty and I know it's an unhealthy way to look at life. I am always vigilant and watchful if not in an overbearing manner much to the annoyance of a lot of people. I can understand why this would hurt an INFP who the friend I have in mind is. People do not like to be guarded all of the time...

  9. #49
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    If you're referring to what I said, I didn't mean to imply that ISFJs in particular need more education or liberalism. Anyone of any type who is less educated and exposed to less culture will be less likely to see their personal biases. Ns who are raised in a more closed environment will be, in my opinion, more likely to jump to conclusions and to accept some broad concepts on a complete leap of faith while rejecting others without much inspection.

    As for parents, at least personally, I've always felt more understood by my ESFJ mom than my INTP dad. If anything, I felt more alienated by FeTi-FiTe differences than N-S. Many people have told me I'm a particularly Fe-ish ENFP, and I assume it's because I was raised in an entirely Fe household.
    Sweetie, I was trying to be humorous I assure you I took no offense what-so-ever to what you said

    It was partially in relation to what you said and a sediment that was presenting itself in this thread and something I run into a lot with Intuitives. ISFJs, particularily ISFJ women, are often characterized as not being stupid but simple so I was trying to take a jab at that (even I'm not an ISFJ woman)
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

  10. #50
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I think there has been a misunderstanding here.
    I did pounce on you here, and I've been thinking about it this afternoon too.

    Comments like that do raise my hackles somewhat because my Mom is not simple or a hick for lacking a post-secondary education. Nor does it convince me that a liberal, "educated" ISFJ is inherently more attuned to giving great gifts. I'm not sure why it would make any difference, honestly. But I am happy for your experience though! Very much so.

    She does take some unwarranted flack, so I did jump up to defend that.

    "Ouch"! Yes, evil skylights, inflicting her evil ISFJ-hating views on the thread!
    I know you don't hatez the ISFJ's - but let's be clear, neither do I. I was a little hard on you and you're right, I didn't think you meant what you said in any evil way.

    So I do extend an apology for pouncing on that.

    I simply get tired of having my opinion invalidated. I mean great, my experience isn't your experience, but it is mine, so I grow weary of expecting to do "damage control" for sharing my actual feelings on the topic.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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