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  1. #31
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    You might think it's his-her problem and it's unfair, but it might very well be that being able to do that will make your relationship with him/her better or smoother or deeper, thus I think it's more of a matter of results rather than anything else.
    I agree but it almost sounds like we're talking about mind reading here.

    And I know that having this ability would be beneficial in a relationship, but it can't be a good idea to continue in, or enable someone else to continue in, a pattern of their actions (external) not matching their intentions (internal)? Maybe there's a healthy middle ground here and we're talking about S vs N stuff but it seems like a line should be drawn somewhere if these two things are constantly contradictory.

  2. #32
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    I agree but it almost sounds like we're talking about mind reading here.

    And I know that having this ability would be beneficial in a relationship, but it can't be a good idea to continue in, or enable someone else to continue in, a pattern of their actions (external) not matching their intentions (internal)? Maybe there's a healthy middle ground here and we're talking about S vs N stuff but it seems like a line should be drawn somewhere if these two things are constantly contradictory.
    I was about to post something like this but then Giggly went and said it for me

    I understand what your saying and I would like to say that I really try my best to understand my partners needs and I'm all about picking battles and trying to win more flies with honey and all of that...

    But the truth is there is only so much I can do and I am doing the best I can and I feel it's unfair for the other party, being they're claiming to have a better perception of what goes on inside someone's head better than me, should be able to understand that I'm trying my best and should t blame me for their inability to either accurately express their feelings or desire to articulate them
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

  3. #33
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    I hope the OP returns and sees this thread evolution; it may provide some helpful info. @Ayelless - come back!

    @highlander; @skylights: I align more with highlander's descriptions on the ISFJ. My mom is ISFJ. As for the gifts discussion, she often gives the gifts she thinks are the "right" gifts, as though the thing that counts is the actual giving of something, rather than really reading the other person to ascertain what would be delightful. (Examples: one of my brothers works in a brewery, and she was going to give him beer from a competitor for XMas - for my son, she was going to give him a 5 car washes coupon when the nearest gas station of that brand is nearly half an hour away and he works at a gas station - for my daughter, a subscription to a lay-person's magazine in her field, rather than one at her level of expertise. I can go on, those are just from the last few months ...) She means well enough though. My hubs and her have the same taste in books, and she often gives him the novels she has already finished.

    So, if you get a book from my Mom, you can be assured she's already read it, no matter how much she takes care not to crack the spine.

    Lists are the solution here. She wants to please, so the provision of a list works best. Still though, she will vet the list if she doesn't "like" what's on it. My ESFJ MIL loves the same kind of thing - lists are prevalent on that side of the family. (Which is where I learned about gift lists and how useful they can be!)

    I can sense my Mom's internal state and give her what she "needs" and she literally watches me for emotional reaction all the time. In this way, I have more control over our interactions than does she. If I don't externally exude emotions, nothing is known. Her ability to internally gauge where I'm at is extremely limited. The strange irony to me is that there are acceptable and unacceptable emotions. As an emotionally wired youngster with two SJ parents, I learned very young to simply hide my emotional reactions because it was too painful to share them and have them judged for appropriateness. My Mom would be ready with social judging; my ISTJ Dad, in matters of practical judgement. My Mom was awkward when I would cry and my Dad would tell me to suck it up and quit bawling. Even now as a seasoned adult, when I express what I want to do / am doing / am feeling, their knee-jerk response is still to comment on appropriateness, feasibility and practicality.

    I still get the urge to shake off the iron chains and tear things to the ground.

    @OrangeAppled and @Southern Kross - how interesting that we three have ISFJ mommas. I do relate to your posts, to the snap judgements and dominance aspect of what you share. Even as a 9, I know I have a certain control in our dynamic and I use it. I'm uncomfortable using emotions to do it, but it's the most reliable way to help channel things to a less judgmental state. My Mom will often call, heated about one thing or another, and I present alternate viewpoints, and use a subtle kind of emoting to help her see that there are (almost always) more than one way to interpret a situation, whilst still trying to preserve the emotional validity of her feeling offended in the first place.

    We could probably have a great convo about all this stuff sometime ...

    Anyways, back to the OP - I think the key between ascertaining what type you are is whether you resonate with reading the internal states of other people or looking for external validation and emotional cues. If talk of the inner world seems foreign to you, you are more likely an ISFJ.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  4. #34
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Ironically, I have not meet an NFP who's read me correctly. I feel more understood by NFJs and SF's.

  5. #35
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    I agree but it almost sounds like we're talking about mind reading here.

    And I know that having this ability would be beneficial in a relationship, but it can't be a good idea to continue in, or enable someone else to continue in, a pattern of their actions (external) not matching their intentions (internal)? Maybe there's a healthy middle ground here and we're talking about S vs N stuff but it seems like a line should be drawn somewhere if these two things are constantly contradictory.
    Well, yeah it's likely not long-term healthy, but it may be okay/useful to connect with people you only interact briefly, or once in a while; or get someone "unstuck" form their rut, when they're normally communicative but they are having specific troubles. Although if it's not something that comes naturally, I also don't see the point of spending a lot of time in its development.

    I align more with highlander's descriptions on the ISFJ. My mom is ISFJ. As for the gifts discussion, she often gives the gifts she thinks are the "right" gifts, as though the only thing that counts is the actual giving of something, rather than really reading the other person to ascertain what would be delightful. (Examples: one of my brothers works in a brewery, and she was going to give him beer from a competitor for XMas - for my son, she was going to give him a 5 car washes coupon when the nearest gas station of that brand is nearly half an hour away and he works at a gas station - for my daughter, a subscription to a lay-person's magazine in her field, rather than one at her level of expertise. I can go on, those are just from the last few months ...) She means well enough, and oh she's so cheap. My hubs and her have the same taste in books, and she often gives him the novels she has already finished.
    Eh, I don't really think all ISFJs are that unsophisticated. Maybe they need to grow up in a more liberal or intellectual environment, but I've met a good number of them who are not so "square" in their thinking.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  6. #36
    Member Hecuba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    Ironically, I have not meet an NFP who's read me correctly. I feel more understood by NFJs and SF's.
    Likewise, and I think it is mutual though I like all the INFPs I have met. Though the INFP I have in mind has read me fairly well in the past.

  7. #37
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    Ironically, I have not meet an NFP who's read me correctly. I feel more understood by NFJs and SF's.
    I don't doubt you do feel more understood by those types. You are, because you share more in common.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  8. #38
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    Ironically, I have not meet an NFP who's read me correctly. I feel more understood by NFJs and SF's.
    Ditto. My ENFJ-ex gets me better than anyone else I know
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

  9. #39
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Eh, I don't really think all ISFJs are that unsophisticated. Maybe they need to grow up in a more liberal or intellectual environment, but I've met a good number of them who are not so "square" in their thinking.
    Nor did I say they are.

    I am doing that "NFP thing" where we all share our individual stories to ascertain and assemble the patterns amongst us.

    Your experience may vary.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  10. #40
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Well, yeah it's likely not long-term healthy, but it may be okay/useful to connect with people you only interact briefly, or once in a while; or get someone "unstuck" form their rut, when they're normally communicative but they are having specific troubles. Although if it's not something that comes naturally, I also don't see the point of spending a lot of time in its development.
    That sounds good to me.

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