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  1. #11
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    ISFJs have outward-directed ethics, strongly characterized by responsibility/duty, and more of a quiet inward creativity - an ISFJ will do first and dream later. INFPs have more of an outward-directed creativity, and inward-directed ethical rumination, characterized by development of a very strong internal values base - the INFP will dream first and do later. INFPs are better in touch with their own personal emotions, while ISFJs have a better radar for the feelings of others.
    I agree with these things for the most part though ISFJs may be better at thinking they understand emotions of others because they are applying judgments related to that based on past experience. They are not however especially intuitive about the state of a person's emotions at a given moment based on their reactions.

    ISFJs do things for other people. It's how they show they care. I think they are sensitive but they don't display those emotions much to others. They hold things in. ISFJ is the stereotypical mother whose life revolves around and does everything for her kids. INFPs are far more independent of others. They aren't as much doers. The INFP will spend a lot of time and thought with a gift for someone - it will be something special even if it is small. Maybe it will have some kind of meaning. The ISFJ will quickly make those buying decisions with the idea that "it's the thought that counts" and not think a great deal about what it is they are getting and how much the other person will like it.

    So, the ISFJ is do, do, do. Do your best to make others happy. You should do things a certain way because that is how you do things or how people wish to be treated. They are wonderful to be around. They pay attention to you and are nice. They are judgmental about others relating towards a person's behavior and what aligns with the expected norms.

    The INFP is much more of an individual. They are more moody and more likely to be loners than the ISFJ. They are much more abstract and complex thinkers and more of an idealistic and ivory tower type. They are quite judgmental about others but it relates towards imposing their personal values on what is right or wrong - it's less about specific behaviors and more holistic in the judgments that are applied (e.g., how a person lives their life, what their values are, views on problem in society).

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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    ...while INFPs are more likely to be into theorizing and original art based on more universal ideals and principles.
    The way you FPs tend to describe your ideals and principles as "universal" always bothers/boggles me...

    Subjective ideals and principles is what they seem to be, and "subjective" seems pretty opposite of "universal"...


  3. #13
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I agree with these things for the most part though ISFJs may be better at thinking they understand emotions of others because they are applying judgments related to that based on past experience. They are not however especially intuitive about the state of a person's emotions at a given moment based on their reactions.
    Yes, I agree that the past experience can be an issue! If an SFJ hasn't experienced seeing a certain thing in a certain light before, they're generally less ready to be accepting of it than an NFP, who uses past experience much less frequently and in a much less important role. Though I do think that Fe types can pick up on internal emotional change in Fi types very quickly, even if they can't necessarily identify what, exactly, the emotion was and is becoming. In particular with SFJs who have been around you for a while and can sense "something is different".

    The ISFJ will quickly make those buying decisions with the idea that "it's the thought that counts" and not think a great deal about what it is they are getting and how much the other person will like it.
    I'm not sure I agree with this. The SFJs I know are generally very attentive to the nature of what they are giving and how the other person will receive it, but I have noticed that they tend to bring in more "socially appropriate" thinking, such as "this is a ____ type of event, so I should give ____ type of gift" sort of thing. NFPs are far more likely to pass over the outward meaning of the gift and focus on the inherent enjoyment, and I think NFPs are also more likely to go out on a limb with gifts, whereas SFJs are more likely to stick with what they experientially know will be good. So SFJs are more likely to adhere to a standard "form" of gift-giving, I think. But as far as I have observed, they are very conscientious about their gestures towards others as a whole, gift-giving included.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    The way you FPs tend to describe your ideals and principles as "universal" always bothers/boggles me...

    Subjective ideals and principles is what they seem to be, and "subjective" seems pretty opposite of "universal"...

    Hm. Vague wording on my part. What I was going for there was "theoretical/abstract/holistic". "Universal" in the sense of pertaining to the universe as the greatest whole. Not really universal an in objective. With NFPs you get more attempting to expand to the greatest whole possible; with SFJs you get more of an interest in the specifics.

  4. #14
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Yes, I agree that the past experience can be an issue! If an SFJ hasn't experienced seeing a certain thing in a certain light before, they're generally less ready to be accepting of it than an NFP, who uses past experience much less frequently and in a much less important role. Though I do think that Fe types can pick up on internal emotional change in Fi types very quickly, even if they can't necessarily identify what, exactly, the emotion was and is becoming. In particular with SFJs who have been around you for a while and can sense "something is different".
    ENFPs as an example seem far more perceptive IMO of people's internal states of feeling though it seems to elude them with certain types, like INFJs.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post

    I'm not sure I agree with this. The SFJs I know are generally very attentive to the nature of what they are giving and how the other person will receive it, but I have noticed that they tend to bring in more "socially appropriate" thinking, such as "this is a ____ type of event, so I should give ____ type of gift" sort of thing. NFPs are far more likely to pass over the outward meaning of the gift and focus on the inherent enjoyment, and I think NFPs are also more likely to go out on a limb with gifts, whereas SFJs are more likely to stick with what they experientially know will be good. So SFJs are more likely to adhere to a standard "form" of gift-giving, I think. But as far as I have observed, they are very conscientious about their gestures towards others as a whole, gift-giving included.
    Generally, I agree with the ISFJ being very conscientious about the gestures to others - including gift giving - even to the point of being excessively generous as far as financial expenditure goes. However, if you don't focus on the person's inherent enjoyment of what is bought, which may have absolutely nothing to do with what is a socially accepted norm, then naturally that leads to them being generous with gifts but giving a lot of things that people don't want or like. The way around this is to give them a list. However, the items on the list that are "inappropriate" are meted out. It's a trivial thing I suppose. Just don't expect them to guess what you want. An INFP is much better at doing this. They can connect the dots.

    Maybe Fi types understand Fi types better and Fe types understand Fe types better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Maybe Fi types understand Fi types better and Fe types understand Fe types better.
    This is what I was wondering...

    Cuz I do agree with pretty much everything you've been saying.

    Then again, they say the (N?)FPs are loaded with mirror neurons, so it might go beyond that.

    You've expressed many times that ISFJs don't seem to get your internal emotional workings.

    I can say that the ESFJs I've been around also don't seem to get that stuff.

    Like you say, they make assumptions, but they're often false.

    The FPs seem to have a far better read on me.

  6. #16
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    I can see why you're having difficulty choosing between the two; SJs and NFs might seem very different, but there's really a lot of common ground here. For the most part, ISFJs and I get along beautifully.

    The only major contention I've had with ISFJ friends is their tendency to act much differently than they feel. They'll treat everyone with impeccable politeness and create the impression that they think well of all of their "friends," but for many ISFJs I've known, there's been a serious disparity between how they treat people and how they actually feel about them. I can't stand this. Of course everyone deserves a reasonable level of civility and openness, but not to the extent that others are led to believe that you value them significantly more than you actually do. One of my ISFJ friends has multiple "best friends" whom she regularly complains about. It's an Fe>Fi thing. The less mature an ISFJ is, they're be more concerned about preserving the immediate social atmosphere than acting out what they personally believe. Being social-first and NiFe in socionics, I greatly respect the first value, but Fi always trumps it.

    (...I'm an INFP e9, and in comparison to every ISFJ I've ever known, I look confrontational, if less easily fazed.)

    As for our other differences, I'm pretty much just echoing what previous posts have said. ISFJs can be incredibly perceptive in regards to social dynamics; I've never met one who had difficulty processing and responding to that kind of information, even if they didn't feel confident in these abilities. Less likely to say something inappropriate than INFPs. Also less likely to actually enjoy school and the in-class learning experience. More hands-on.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Yes, I agree that the past experience can be an issue! If an SFJ hasn't experienced seeing a certain thing in a certain light before, they're generally less ready to be accepting of it than an NFP, who uses past experience much less frequently and in a much less important role. Though I do think that Fe types can pick up on internal emotional change in Fi types very quickly, even if they can't necessarily identify what, exactly, the emotion was and is becoming. In particular with SFJs who have been around you for a while and can sense "something is different".
    This has definitely been my experience.

  7. #17
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    You've expressed many times that ISFJs don't seem to get your internal emotional workings.
    It's more than that though. ISFJs don't get INFPs very well at all. I think the INFPs get the ISFJs reasonably well however. They seem as completely different as types can be with respect to their internal workings.

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  8. #18
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander
    However, if you don't focus on the person's inherent enjoyment of what is bought, which may have absolutely nothing to do with what is a socially accepted norm, then naturally that leads to them being generous with gifts but giving a lot of things that people don't want or like. The way around this is to give them a list. However, the items on the list that are "inappropriate" are meted out. It's a trivial thing I suppose. Just don't expect them to guess what you want.
    Maybe SFJs have an easier time reading FPs than TJs? The SFJs I know have generally done a really good job with presents for me - but the more information they're provided with, the better, definitely. I don't think I've observed much of SFJs in my life giving unwanted/unlike presents, but that's just my experience. Perhaps it's different in others' lives. I think Ns are actually more prone to give the other person something that they personally like because they see the "potential" of that other person with the gift, if that makes sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    You've expressed many times that ISFJs don't seem to get your internal emotional workings.

    I can say that the ESFJs I've been around also don't seem to get that stuff.

    Like you say, they make assumptions, but they're often false.

    The FPs seem to have a far better read on me.
    I suspect the bold is your answer... my ISFJ and I were talking about it in the car the other day. He's very good at reading external messages. Feelings people send out to influence their environment. He knows when I'm upset and hoping for his attention. He can pick up and head off people that are starting to express anger. He can take a negative external mood and rapidly shift it to positive. But he's not very good at explaining his own internal feelings, nor is he as easily able to interact with people who are mired in their own personal emotion. FJs deal with interpersonal feelings, feelings externalized. FPs deal with internal. You being TeFi, you probably don't do much externalization of feeling, so FJs probably don't have much to go on with you.

  9. #19
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    He's very good at reading external messages. Feelings people send out to influence their environment. He knows when I'm upset and hoping for his attention. He can pick up and head off people that are starting to express anger. He can take a negative external mood and rapidly shift it to positive. But he's not very good at explaining his own internal feelings, nor is he as easily able to interact with people who are mired in their own personal emotion. FJs deal with interpersonal feelings, feelings externalized. FPs deal with internal.
    I think that captures things really well. So if an INFP or INTJ doesn't express their inner states or emotions then the ISFJ can't pick up on how they are feeling. ENFPs don't have that problem. They can't help but tell you what they're feeling.

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  10. #20
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    I really don't feel like I make any personal decisions based on social norms, unless it involves breaking the law. People may see me as "common" but that is because whatever "common" values I have is because I feel that those are the values that are most suitable for me personally.

    And anyone who knows me well will tell you that I am one of the most expressive people they know. I'm just very picky with whom I do that with. It takes a level of comfort, trust and closeness and sometimes I need to be given enough time put my feelings into words.

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