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  1. #91
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Oh, interesting. Yeah, that sounds right. My boyfriend and I have argued over "assuming responsibility" before, because to me it's just like, okay, well we have a broken jar now, let's just get this thing up ASAP, but he wants me to say that I'm the one who's messed up, and it drives me crazy because I feel like there are always multiple determining factors in any situation. I always apologize, but him wanting me to claim responsibility tends to feel like a blame game to me. I do feel responsibility and definitely make a big effort to address my personal issues when they lead to a bad situation, but I hate having to state to the world that it was "my fault" when I feel like that's a major oversimplification of a situation that is inevitably caused by more than just me. I mean, if I forget plane tickets or something, that is my fault, and I will say that. But if it's a misunderstanding, that always involves one person speaking in a certain way and one person listening in a certain way, and it's really ultimately both of their "fault" if a misunderstanding occurs.

    Now I generally try to just claim fault in the interest of harmony, but I don't really understand why he needs me to state that I'm the problem when it's almost always far more complex than one person's doing. If I didn't know him better I would say it seemed like he was just trying to boost his ego, but he's not like that. So I don't really understand it. If I lay claim to having created the situation... what does it change about the situation? Nothing... I'm going to do my best to fix it anyway...
    Hah! You sound just my ex! I'm starting to really think she WAS an INFP...

    After some thought the best conclusion I can draw at the moment about the whole responsibility thing is that it's a combination of a)projecting our own values on to you (and therefore expecting you to share it) and b) some sort of display that you are acknowledging to us that you're not being careless with our feelings.

    About A) This really isn't your problem and I haven't quite discerned whether this is a maturity/how-we-are-when-we're-healthy thing or just a flaw with Fe-users in general as I see many posters on this forum having similar issues with SFJs. Maybe an Si-Fe thing? Bottom line, I need to stop projecting my values onto other people close to me.

    About B: Maybe it's because we get taken advantage by so many people, maybe it's because it's important to me that my SO respect my feelings or maybe it's for some other reason but: It's important to me that my partner demonstrate to me that she is sensitive about my feelings and my needs and for some reason that expectation only seems to extend to my SO and my parents. Everyone else in the whole bloody world I will go out of my way, give far more benefit of the doubt, let them get away with a lot more than I would my parents or my SO. My ex noted this paradox to me once. I'm not entirely certain as to the true reasons and motivations behind this but the best I've come up is, because I'm so much vulnerable with my SO and my parents, I therefore bruise a lot easier when they hurt my feelings. With my friends, colleagues, coworkers, etc... I don't really expect that much from them so if they do something careless, it's not the big production that if my SO hurts me it becomes.

    I do however expect a lot more from my SO and from my parents so when they do something to hurt me and they seem very slow to accept responsibility or correct the behavior (particularly if a pattern starts to form) then it makes me feel like they're not taking me or my feelings as seriously as I'd like them too. Mind you this does ease up considerably once I've really gotten to know them intimately and find out all their little quirks. Then the things that used to irritate me become endearing

    Maybe it's a self-esteem thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Thanks And yeah, we talked about it a couple of years ago. She apologized and explained that providing has always been the best way she knows how to help, and she doesn't feel like she's very good at sitting and talking about emotions. She's also sort of ADHD, lol, so it's hard for her to just sit and not do. And my dad (INTP) has always been reserved and hands-off, so he never really did that kind of support, either. My brother (ISTP) and boyfriend (ISFJ) still don't do the Fi thing, but they will just sit and hang, so now I just go to them if I feel that need.
    Really? That's interesting, sitting around and talking about feelings is something I'm really good at! Different strokes I guess. Still, it's good she apologized and tried to make amends and I'm glad she clarified that for you. I hope she's better about it now.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Yes, right, exactly. I didn't mean to imply you're closed minded, just that Fe and Te can act on whatever information is available and can continue acting even when new information presents itself - because the chances are the new information will continue to be consistent with the existing information. We discover it has tail feathers: still can behave as if we are dealing with a duck.
    I didn't think you were implying that at all, I just threw that in there as I or someone could interpret that statement in that way. And I agree completely. Fe (or maybe just Si-Fe) just seems to have a more stubborn time adopting new information and I wonder why that is...

    I'd like to take this time to thank you and Highlander (I'd mention him but I've yet to get that stupid feature working right so I just gave up) for your continued thoughts and time on this thread and to once again apologize to Giggly-chan for making this thread less than fun for her
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

  2. #92
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    Hah! You sound just my ex! I'm starting to really think she WAS an INFP...

    After some thought the best conclusion I can draw at the moment about the whole responsibility thing is that it's a combination of a)projecting our own values on to you (and therefore expecting you to share it) and b) some sort of display that you are acknowledging to us that you're not being careless with our feelings.

    About A) This really isn't your problem and I haven't quite discerned whether this is a maturity/how-we-are-when-we're-healthy thing or just a flaw with Fe-users in general as I see many posters on this forum having similar issues with SFJs. Maybe an Si-Fe thing? Bottom line, I need to stop projecting my values onto other people close to me.

    About B: Maybe it's because we get taken advantage by so many people, maybe it's because it's important to me that my SO respect my feelings or maybe it's for some other reason but: It's important to me that my partner demonstrate to me that she is sensitive about my feelings and my needs and for some reason that expectation only seems to extend to my SO and my parents. Everyone else in the whole bloody world I will go out of my way, give far more benefit of the doubt, let them get away with a lot more than I would my parents or my SO. My ex noted this paradox to me once. I'm not entirely certain as to the true reasons and motivations behind this but the best I've come up is, because I'm so much vulnerable with my SO and my parents, I therefore bruise a lot easier when they hurt my feelings. With my friends, colleagues, coworkers, etc... I don't really expect that much from them so if they do something careless, it's not the big production that if my SO hurts me it becomes.

    I do however expect a lot more from my SO and from my parents so when they do something to hurt me and they seem very slow to accept responsibility or correct the behavior (particularly if a pattern starts to form) then it makes me feel like they're not taking me or my feelings as seriously as I'd like them too. Mind you this does ease up considerably once I've really gotten to know them intimately and find out all their little quirks. Then the things that used to irritate me become endearing

    Maybe it's a self-esteem thing?
    Actually I share that - might be an Sx thing, too. I'm glad that I'm not the only one like this! I've had it pointed out, as well, that I am much "harder" on my SO and family, and it's because I care so much more about them and feel vulnerable to their value judgments of me, too. My personal way of being demanding is through Te, though, so it comes out as spiky accusations and cold analysis.

    I figured out a long time ago that my ISFJ phrases things in different ways than I do. He would say "I have to do ____", and I would say, "No, you don't, not if you don't want to", and he would counter - "But I do want to". What I didn't understand was that he was phrasing duty associated with a value, where I would typically phrase feeling associated with a value. Perhaps this is a similar situation where you guys are thinking that if we cared, we would phrase it like you would. It's not that we don't care - it's just that we don't phrase it the same way. This: "some sort of display that you are acknowledging to us that you're not being careless with our feelings" makes a lot of sense to me - I would just never phrase it as "it's my fault" because that doesn't jive with the way I see things or the way I would go about working to ensure I don't hurt you in that way again.

    Really? That's interesting, sitting around and talking about feelings is something I'm really good at! Different strokes I guess. Still, it's good she apologized and tried to make amends and I'm glad she clarified that for you. I hope she's better about it now.
    Isn't it? Interesting how people who share some similar traits can be so different in other ways. And thank you! She is. I'm working on being better, too. I try to just wait and let her be a busy bee when she's up and buzzing and instead catch her when she's already down.

    I didn't think you were implying that at all, I just threw that in there as I or someone could interpret that statement in that way. And I agree completely. Fe (or maybe just Si-Fe) just seems to have a more stubborn time adopting new information and I wonder why that is...
    Oh, no, it's Ni-Fe, too. I think it's good, actually. Ne and Se are too breezy sometimes, just flitting around to whatever is the most novel instead of sticking with the set course, and we can end up never getting anywhere.

    I'd like to take this time to thank you and Highlander (I'd mention him but I've yet to get that stupid feature working right so I just gave up) for your continued thoughts and time on this thread and to once again apologize to Giggly-chan for making this thread less than fun for her
    You, too! I've really enjoyed this thread, and I keep learning new things!

    I also apologize, Giggly

  3. #93
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Actually I share that - might be an Sx thing, too. I'm glad that I'm not the only one like this! I've had it pointed out, as well, that I am much "harder" on my SO and family, and it's because I care so much more about them and feel vulnerable to their value judgments of me, too. My personal way of being demanding is through Te, though, so it comes out as spiky accusations and cold analysis.
    Yikes! Makes me wonder whats worse in this situation..Fe or Te?

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I figured out a long time ago that my ISFJ phrases things in different ways than I do. He would say "I have to do ____", and I would say, "No, you don't, not if you don't want to", and he would counter - "But I do want to". What I didn't understand was that he was phrasing duty associated with a value, where I would typically phrase feeling associated with a value. Perhaps this is a similar situation where you guys are thinking that if we cared, we would phrase it like you would. It's not that we don't care - it's just that we don't phrase it the same way. This: "some sort of display that you are acknowledging to us that you're not being careless with our feelings" makes a lot of sense to me - I would just never phrase it as "it's my fault" because that doesn't jive with the way I see things or the way I would go about working to ensure I don't hurt you in that way again.
    That's definitely a good thought and something I'll have to keep in mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Oh, no, it's Ni-Fe, too. I think it's good, actually. Ne and Se are too breezy sometimes, just flitting around to whatever is the most novel instead of sticking with the set course, and we can end up never getting anywhere.
    Good to know, I was starting to worry this was an Si-Fe thing exclusively. And yeah I've noted the same thing about Ne and Se and I wonder if that's why Se-Ne users are drawn to Si-Ni users. We compliment each other well

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    You, too! I've really enjoyed this thread, and I keep learning new things!

    I also apologize, Giggly
    BIG HUG FOR GIGGLY-CHAN

    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

  4. #94
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    And yeah I've noted the same thing about Ne and Se and I wonder if that's why Se-Ne users are drawn to Si-Ni users. We compliment each other well



    @Giggly


  5. #95
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    I haven't been keeping up with this thread so don't worry about me. I appreciate being called in for the hugs though.

  6. #96
    As Long As It Takes.... Redbone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I understand what you are saying. There is value in expressing and communicating feelings in a way that other people understand obviously.

    The problem is your bolded statement. I'm just stating that ISFJs on average tend to not understand INFPs particularly well (it's half belief/half conjecture). It doesn't assign blame. If the statement is true then it is a simple fact.

    The problem with the view you are voicing here is that it is critical of people who don't comply with this "standard" you are referring to. Therefore, those who do not comply with the standard ARE being blamed. By you. It comes across as a negative judgment of the other person vs. understanding and accepting them for who they are.
    Good thread (it helped me figure out that my ex-husband is really an ISFJ and not ESFJ...and understand him a lot better). I appreciate the ISFJs sharing how they see things.

    My ex said that point out the 'should' is like pointing out the sky is blue. It's so obvious, why bring it up he says? So when I didn't 'comply' he filled in the blanks with auto-responses e.g. 'she's not smiling so she's not happy' 'she doesn't give me compliments/feedback so that means she hates what I did'. Not true but he didn't know that because he made assumptions based on standards that I do not follow. He literally thought that everyone thinks like him so why ask ( I think every type is guilty of this to some degree). I did the same and it didn't end well. I'm glad we are able to talk about it a little more now.

    Communication can help a lot with that and accepting that those standards, no matter how "normal" they seem do not have universal application. @skylights and her ISFJ seem to be very good at this...does it cause you stress to communicate in ways that your ISFJ understands? You may have said so...but I haven't read the whole thread yet.

  7. #97
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redbone View Post
    My ex said that point out the 'should' is like pointing out the sky is blue. It's so obvious, why bring it up he says? So when I didn't 'comply' he filled in the blanks with auto-responses e.g. 'she's not smiling so she's not happy' 'she doesn't give me compliments/feedback so that means she hates what I did'. Not true but he didn't know that because he made assumptions based on standards that I do not follow. He literally thought that everyone thinks like him so why ask ( I think every type is guilty of this to some degree).
    Absolutely.

    Communication can help a lot with that and accepting that those standards, no matter how "normal" they seem do not have universal application. @skylights and her ISFJ seem to be very good at this...does it cause you stress to communicate in ways that your ISFJ understands? You may have said so...but I haven't read the whole thread yet.
    Well, in everyday terms, we have always communicated very fluently, enough so that it was one of the factors that brought us together in the beginning. We share some sort of values-based idealism and a similar aesthetic appreciation that I have yet to completely understand and probably goes far beyond the language of type, in addition to fairly similar backgrounds. Through much of our relationship I feel like I have been learning how we are using different words to discuss the same concepts, and once that knowledge is there, everything flows more smoothly, as it's just a matter of shifting language until I hit on the right words and phrases. So far I have dramatically increased my language bank in terms of specific/formal place names, event names, organization names, etc...

    It's generally when either of us is already stressed or when we are both frustrated with each other that the communication differences tend to rear their heads, and I've been learning what tends to make me feel more stressed (him being very Si-heavy or Ti-heavy) and what tends to make him feel more stressed (me being very Ne-heavy or not thinking in Fe terms). However, it's also been a huge positive in my life, because my family is ESFJ, INTP, and ISTP - all Fe/Ti - and learning to communicate better with my ISFJ has also improved my communication with all of my family members.

    The stress of it, it seems, is much akin to learning a new language - very stressful at first, and embarrassing as I stumble and create misunderstandings, but increasingly automatic and well-worth the resulting ease of communication. He, too, is learning Fi-Te. The most pleasing of all is when we can wield our personal native strengths in the external world to benefit the other while still being able to communicate fluidly between us.

    I think that we have gotten lucky because he is solution-seeking, patient, and devoted, and I am sx-hyperattached and very interested in interpersonal differences, so between the two of us we typically manage to talk about and work through our communication differences. Our biggest hurdle is probably that he is very much a 9w1 idealistic peacemaker while I am very much a 6w7 proactive analyzer, and I tend to tear open and bare problem spots while he would much rather try to heal them and minimize them - I tend to get angry at him when he doesn't want to discuss our issues, letting them persist, and he tends to get angry at me when I want to rip into our issues, igniting them. We have to strike a balance of being progressively positive, but not inflammatory or reluctant, to satisfy both of our needs.

  8. #98
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Hi tinker.

    What a great thread. I appreciate you and am so grateful for all you have shared and your patience to express it.

    And I know this stuff isn't fun for ISFJ's - you all deserve hugs because I know you all want to love others the way they want to be loved. @Tabula, @Giggly -

    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    What prompted this WHOLE mini-debate we'e been having was my response to an INFP stating that her ISFJ mom "didn't get her". I had responded that this was a sediment that I often read about Intuitives who have ISFJ parents and I had stated, (REPEATEDLY NOW) that we can only work with the information we're given and all these Intuitives need to own up to the possibility that they themselves have some responsibility in why this continues to happen.
    I agree we do have a responsibility to help ourselves be understood. With my example, there's context of course - an adult and a child. To expect a child to be able to articulate - with justification - the emotions they feel is somewhat unrealistic. I'm 45 and I am still working on trying to set healthier patterns with my Si dom parents, patterns where I am in an adult role and not a child whose emotional reactions need to be corrected and judged or a child whose competence is always being measured and assessed. Those old scripts are hard to update, even in my own head.

    An ISFJ mom and ISTJ Dad - lots of standards via Te and Fe. And I've learned so much from them that I consider myself very fortunate in many ways, so I am not trying to minimize what I owe them for that and for being my parents and their loyalty to me.

    I really love this one-sided special treatment that you almost seem to be implying that Fi-users should get. As an Fe-user I should have to be more accommodating but they're not required to understand and recognize just how confusing they may be presenting themselves and work to try and better that? Does that seem fair to you?
    I've heard this often in my life. I think it boils down to the fact that as an INFP I don't use my emotions as a tool, and the thread took this turn after this post of yours so I am grateful it did.

    I just feel what I feel. To be true to myself and help myself process those emotions I need to feel them. When they come out into the external world, I'm not using them on you to get you to do something. Does that make sense?

    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    The problem comes when we're being accused of not understanding you guys. If you yourselves aren't even aware of how it is you really feel about something, then how in the world am I supposed too? I'm doing the best I've got with what you're giving me. Telling me "you just don't understand me" feels unfair to me in this respect.
    For me, I know how I feel and likely could express it. It's more about my feelings being judged when they come out because they may not match the intensity you expect or come out in the manner you expect. And again, it's about assuming I am using those emotions as some kind of communication device, that I have an intention in expressing them. I don't. Emotions for me are not a tool I use to get someone to do something. If I cry, it's because I am sad, not because I want you to comfort me. I may desire to be comforted in my sadness, but I don't let the tears come so I will get comforted. Does that make sense?

    I could share examples from my childhood (because I cried a lot haha.) There were times when I was not comforted by my parents because the reason I was crying was not 'good enough' or 'appropriate'. Or the time was not 'appropriate'. Or I was crying 'too much' or 'too loud' or for 'too long' or 'too easily' ... This creates a lot of confusion for an Fi dom child I think. ("I cry and sometimes I get a hug, sometimes I do not. Why?") And I could also feel how much my tears would annoy my parents, that internal gauge of their state, which led me to believe I was bad for being who I was because I annoyed them. (In retrospect, I realize that their internal state was affected by more than just me in the moment, but hey, I was little, cut me some slack on that!) So for me, it simply became easier to not express my feelings out loud because they were used as a tool against me, used to mock me when my frustration bubbled out in tears, used to shame me when I behaved in inappropriate ways when I was supposed to 'know better'.

    I don't think Fi-users really understand JUST how perceptive Fe-users are. We are observing every action, deed, and thing you say and not just what you say but HOW you say it and the inflection and tone you use. I said this once before and I'll say it again: People have no idea how much of themselves they give away not just in what they say and do but what they don't say and do. It's from these external queues that we read you.
    And that's what I learned NOT to do: give out any external cues because I was tired of being misread and more so, tired of being judged and having my emotions used against me. And I should add, to give out the 'right' cues. The ones that kept everyone happy ...

    I'm willing to concede and that I and perhaps other Fe-users (though I won't claim to speak for them) tend to project onto the world how it is that we think the world ought to be and I can see why that would be frustrating for Fi-users who follow the 'beat of their own drum' as it were. Here we are projecting our world views, telling everyone how things should be, and you guys feel like you're being told you're a part of a system you didn't sign on for or necessarily agree with! I imagine we come off as as sanctimonious or self-righteous at best and tyrannical at worst.
    That's big of you and I appreciate you saying that.

    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    If I'm understanding you correctly and please correct me if I'm not, you're stating that Thinking types or NFPs don't use emotions as a communication tool. Fair enough. If this is true, then how do you choose to communicate your needs and if your response is "verbal" then how I am, as an Fe-type, to construe your words when they don't match your actions?
    You've re-articulated that well. I will expand it to say that Fi users in general will not use emotions as a tool to further a goal with other people. I don't know the answer for ISFJ's though to break through on that. I do know you don't get an internal gauge on these things and that's what I use to discern such things.

    I would simply say that I have learned it is my responsibility to communicate what I need to you, rather than expecting you to know what I need. I will feel 'dirty' to use emotions to get it though. Using emotion in this way feels improper or 'bad' to me, because that's the way I am wired. If anything, you could try to just be logical and unemotional in tone to help us get our feelings out in the open and feel safe to do so.

    kk hope this helps add to the discussion. I love my parents and I'm not sharing my history here for any reason other than to help everyone learn something from it. Don't feel bad for me, because for whatever reason, this is the stuff I am here to learn about and grow from, so I am grateful for all that I have experienced and learned about myself and others.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  9. #99
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Heh I just thought of this too:

    If I'm understanding you correctly and please correct me if I'm not, you're stating that Thinking types or NFPs don't use emotions as a communication tool. Fair enough. If this is true, then how do you choose to communicate your needs and if your response is "verbal" then how I am, as an Fe-type, to construe your words when they don't match your actions?
    You look for words to match actions as your measure of consistency, maybe even authenticity. I look for your internal emotional state to match your outer one to measure that same thing. So for me, there's so often this mismatch when I feel your internal irritation for example but see your outer politeness. To me, that was a difficult thing to reconcile, that people act nice but don't think nice.

    Your measure is that the external consistency is more important. To me, the inner consistency is more important.

    Interesting difference, eh?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  10. #100
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Hi tinker.
    Y helo thar

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    What a great thread. I appreciate you and am so grateful for all you have shared and your patience to express it.

    And I know this stuff isn't fun for ISFJ's - you all deserve hugs because I know you all want to love others the way they want to be loved.
    You're welcome, although looking back on the thread I feel I was much harsher and/or judgmental than I needed to be. I was trying to get a point across and I've been told I can be exceedingly blunt to the point of being hurtful and while I try not to be, it does happen. So I'm sorry if anyone reading this thread felt I was being abrasive.

    Skylights and I seemed to have reached an understanding and one I'm grateful for and you seem to be echoing a lot of her sediments which is very helpful for me

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I agree we do have a responsibility to help ourselves be understood. With my example, there's context of course - an adult and a child. To expect a child to be able to articulate - with justification - the emotions they feel is somewhat unrealistic. I'm 45 and I am still working on trying to set healthier patterns with my Si dom parents, patterns where I am in an adult role and not a child whose emotional reactions need to be corrected and judged or a child whose competence is always being measured and assessed. Those old scripts are hard to update, even in my own head.
    Of course, and I hope I didn't come off as implying that whatever 'standard' I spoke of applied to children. As the risk of sound very SJ-like or Fe-like, children have their own set of rules I think

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    An ISFJ mom and ISTJ Dad - lots of standards via Te and Fe. And I've learned so much from them that I consider myself very fortunate in many ways, so I am not trying to minimize what I owe them for that and for being my parents and their loyalty to me.
    Oh wow, that must have been an experience. My dad is an ENFP and my Mom is an IxFJ so I had a similar background back from the opposite direction: I often found myself being puzzled by my parents behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I've heard this often in my life. I think it boils down to the fact that as an INFP I don't use my emotions as a tool, and the thread took this turn after this post of yours so I am grateful it did.

    I just feel what I feel. To be true to myself and help myself process those emotions I need to feel them. When they come out into the external world, I'm not using them on you to get you to do something. Does that make sense?
    It does, but I would like to clarify something: It isn't necessarily that Fe-users think that you're trying to 'put anything on to them' or to make some sort of request to us but rather that you're attempting to communicate some sort of need. As such, when you do express an emotion, we think there is something you're trying to communicate to us (after all, if you're sad then there must be a reason while you're sad and we want to address that reason).

    Whether we not we actually want to respond to you is another matter altogether.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    For me, I know how I feel and likely could express it. It's more about my feelings being judged when they come out because they may not match the intensity you expect or come out in the manner you expect. And again, it's about assuming I am using those emotions as some kind of communication device, that I have an intention in expressing them. I don't. Emotions for me are not a tool I use to get someone to do something. If I cry, it's because I am sad, not because I want you to comfort me. I may desire to be comforted in my sadness, but I don't let the tears come so I will get comforted. Does that make sense?
    It does, and I think this touches on something Skylights said about her ISFJ being solution-oriented: I think Fe/Te-users in general are solution oriented so when you do express an emotion to us, we assume that's there is something you need. Why it is we come to this particular conclusion and why we often feel compelled to do something about it is something I do not yet understand myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I could share examples from my childhood (because I cried a lot haha.) There were times when I was not comforted by my parents because the reason I was crying was not 'good enough' or 'appropriate'. Or the time was not 'appropriate'. Or I was crying 'too much' or 'too loud' or for 'too long' or 'too easily' ... This creates a lot of confusion for an Fi dom child I think. ("I cry and sometimes I get a hug, sometimes I do not. Why?") And I could also feel how much my tears would annoy my parents, that internal gauge of their state, which led me to believe I was bad for being who I was because I annoyed them. (In retrospect, I realize that their internal state was affected by more than just me in the moment, but hey, I was little, cut me some slack on that!) So for me, it simply became easier to not express my feelings out loud because they were used as a tool against me, used to mock me when my frustration bubbled out in tears, used to shame me when I behaved in inappropriate ways when I was supposed to 'know better'.
    Ouch, that's harsh I'm sorry to hear that

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    And that's what I learned NOT to do: give out any external cues because I was tired of being misread and more so, tired of being judged and having my emotions used against me. And I should add, to give out the 'right' cues. The ones that kept everyone happy ...
    I could see how this would be incredibly difficult for you and I'm sorry you've had to do this. It's not fair to you.

    I recall you mentioning before that you were married to an ESTJ. How does he handle all of this?

    I might also like to point out that even though you're not trying to give off cues, you are always giving off cues whether you want too or not. It's not just what you say and do that communicates your needs to us, its what you DON'T say and do that communicates that as well

    Or at least that's been my experience. Even the most emotionally distant people I've ever met give off very subtle hints and clues about themselves and their needs, even if it takes an extended period of time to do it in.



    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    That's big of you and I appreciate you saying that.
    Thank you, but I'm just trying to be as honest as I can. I know I can be incredibly stubborn and rigid but I don't want to be. I want to understand and know you guys better. My INxx and I may have had a bad relationship and we argued a lot because of poor communication but I loved her dearly and I still feel some guilt over all the times I misunderstood her and caused her a lot of un-needed stress. I wish to avoid that in the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    You've re-articulated that well. I will expand it to say that Fi users in general will not use emotions as a tool to further a goal with other people. I don't know the answer for ISFJ's though to break through on that. I do know you don't get an internal gauge on these things and that's what I use to discern such things.
    I'd say you did a fair job breaking through on that just now

    But no, I'd say it's something an each individual Fe-user is going to need to learn on their own and for themselves. I suspect this is just one of those things we need to learn as we grow.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I would simply say that I have learned it is my responsibility to communicate what I need to you, rather than expecting you to know what I need.
    YES! This would be enormously appreciative.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I will feel 'dirty' to use emotions to get it though. Using emotion in this way feels improper or 'bad' to me, because that's the way I am wired. If anything, you could try to just be logical and unemotional in tone to help us get our feelings out in the open and feel safe to do so.
    Intellectually I can understand that but as an Fe-user this sounds silly to me (but then, it should, because that's how *I* am wired). You make it sound as if you're attempting to manipulate us but thats not the case. Te-users I think would probably prefer the logical, unemotional approach but for some reason I respond stronger to displays of emotion. I don't know why.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    kk hope this helps add to the discussion. I love my parents and I'm not sharing my history here for any reason other than to help everyone learn something from it. Don't feel bad for me, because for whatever reason, this is the stuff I am here to learn about and grow from, so I am grateful for all that I have experienced and learned about myself and others.
    It did, and likewise
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

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