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[ESTJ] ESTJs DRIVE ME NUTS!!!!!!! :)

sculpting

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Like as in nuts on an ice cream sunday!!! So crunchy and delightful!!!

Like the very best balloons at a party!

Like refrigerator magnets-really cool funny ones!!!

ESTJs are awesome!!!!!!!

They are the most amazing at positive, productive, chaos control and I love them for keeping the world in line, so I can go be silly within my properly designated box of creativity.

They are kick ass at being team players-they come across as driving for the result and are so awesome at taking in feedback and then not being whiny about it.

They arent selfish....they are so outwardly directed, that even if they want something, it morphs into what the whole team needs.

They are just kick ass optimistic and amaze me at how they get stuff done in this no nonsense way without much drama.

And when they do choose to care, it is the sweetest cutest caring ever, cause they are a tiny bit like a little happy kid.

I adore ESTJs!!!!


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_SyqWRDf2lLA/SF8I5lEoAJI/AAAAAAAAACc/8FOPo98HKM8/s400/low-carb-ice-cream-sundae.png
 

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Standuble

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If you say so. I see ESTJs as flawed, unimaginative versions of ENTJs and ENFPs.
 

Giggly

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They are pretty awesome.
 

RaptorWizard

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They are the most amazing at positive, productive, chaos control and I love them for keeping the world in line, so I can go be silly within my properly designated box of creativity.

Shadow the Hedgehog uses CHAOS CONTROL!
Ya, totally an ESTJ!
 

Standuble

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you jelly you only have Fi and Ne to play with?

I'm sorry but what are you talking about? Though inferior I have Si and Te to play with too. Inferior Te can be a lot of fun methinks, there is something thrilling about kicking someone's ass with a borderline inhumane hyper-critical assessment devoid of any real logic. It can make me feel like a villain, it's truly quite fascinating.

My criticism for ESTJs is not so much the Te steamrolling anymore (I think us INFPs are only happy if we're the ones using Te and not anyone else) but the inability to see the bigger picture and make the required connections a position of leadership should require. They direct and dictate yet they're quite clearly completely blind to where those decisions lead and how relevant the process actually is to the results. There's nothing more facepalm inducing than having an ESTJ micro-manage and nitpick even though you instinctively know how to do the job better than they do whilst harbouring the internal belief that you could do their job better than they can as well simply by having a more intuitive understanding of it and the ability to see what is more relevant and less relevant to the possible directions the company could head. I have no such complaints of ENTJs, I can respect them and their visions of where they are taking the company.
 

dobages

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This topic should be in the NT section.
 

OrangeAppled

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I had a crush on an ESTJ recently. Silly, silly, masochistic me. I've just realized how totally mundane & simplistic this person is. I still respect him, and he's nice 'n' stuff, but ew - really, a crush, Orangeappled? Really?!!

I was whining to an ENFJ buddy about romantic interests always going for the mundane people over, well, the likes of him & me (because of course, we are so speshial), and without a moment's pause he says, "Maybe we have too high opinions of the romantic interests that are rejecting us in favor of someone mediocre. Maybe they are also mediocre!"

Ah, I love when he gives me those little one (or two) liner insights which preserve & justify my elitism - um, I mean, explain the universe & nature of humanity. *Goes back to loving ENFJs & being irritated by ESTJs*

In a related story.... ESTJs can have cool tert Ne, which tends to emerge as humor & occasionally seeing potential. However, I've realized how less charming it is than dom Ne. Dom Ne is ENGAGING. Tert Ne is performing - it benefits the user by letting them be playful & receive attention. However, it doesn't really build dynamic with people. There's no connecting. You're just an audience. Ne-dom play with you. So much more preferable. And all the admirable stuff about ESTJs is just dull & unsexy. They're like your DAD. Although my dads are weird & one is a Ne-dom, but they're not proper kinds of dads.
 

EJCC

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Thanks, [MENTION=6166]Orobas[/MENTION]. :hug:

If you say so. I see ESTJs as flawed, unimaginative versions of ENTJs and ENFPs.
Looks like someone's got a lot of N bias... and hasn't realized the whole point of the MBTI, i.e. that everyone has something to contribute, and no type is superior to any other.

p.s. Coffee break's over! Back to work! ;)
 

Standuble

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Thanks, [MENTION=6166]Orobas[/MENTION]. :hug:


Looks like someone's got a lot of N bias... and hasn't realized the whole point of the MBTI, i.e. that everyone has something to contribute, and no type is superior to any other.

p.s. Coffee break's over! Back to work! ;)

My second response explained my reasoning. Please read it.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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I have at times bought into the negative hype on ESTJs, but I think an example of a really great one is Michael Bluth from "Arrested Development". He has many of the qualities described in the OP. He leans a little towards ESFJ, but in the end I think he is a T.
 

Nicki

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ESTJs always end up as my rolemodels. Probably because they actually accomplish things.
 

highlander

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Don't take them seriously and laugh at them. They will love you :harhar:

Oh and tell them they are lacking in common sense. It will all throw them off.
 

EJCC

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My second response explained my reasoning. Please read it.
I had already read your second response, and my comment still stands, because you are clearly biased towards Te + N. Additionally:

1. ENTJ -- i.e. "Te with vision" -- still has huge blind spots that get in the way of effective leadership, most notably figuring out how to make their vision happen (which is something that ESTJs are talented at);
2. No one type is a perfect leader, and every type has a skill that would be extremely useful in a leadership position; and
3. That's why you have subordinates -- to balance out your flaws and to do what it's impossible for you to do, since no one person can do everything.

Calling any one type a "less X version" of some other type, is completely ignoring their unique strengths and uses in the world, professionally or otherwise.
 

Standuble

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I had already read your second response, and my comment still stands, because you are clearly biased towards Te + N. Additionally:

1. ENTJ -- i.e. "Te with vision" -- still has huge blind spots that get in the way of effective leadership, most notably figuring out how to make their vision happen (which is something that ESTJs are talented at);
2. No one type is a perfect leader, and every type has a skill that would be extremely useful in a leadership position; and
3. That's why you have subordinates -- to balance out your flaws and to do what it's impossible for you to do, since no one person can do everything.

Calling any one type a "less X version" of some other type, is completely ignoring their unique strengths and uses in the world, professionally or otherwise.

You argue good points however my mind still hasn't been changed. Call me irrational but I've seen too much ESTJ short-sightedness/lack of seeing the forest in my time to start patting you guys on the back. However I will be honest that my criticism of ESTJ in this regard is not any greater than the other SJ types (it's much worse for the ISTJs.) It's just a shame many from your number like to task/delegate to your subordinates with stuff which is just not that relevant to what the company is there for: to make money and grow and expects the subordinates to take the process very seriously when it is only minor in the grand scheme of things. How am I supposed to respect such a person as a superior? There is a very real sense that you guys only get things done because you only take a small number of factors into account and your vision is limited. A vision would obviously be easier to implement if it only needs to have ten factors assessed instead of a hundred but one must wonder whether a vision of that amount of scope would create better results than a bigger vision which manages to be implemented. But I suppose a number of ESTJs working together is perhaps enough to keep a business afloat.

I'm sure I'm working with stereotypes here but they do have their roots in my own direct experiences. Perhaps I'm right, perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps you are different, perhaps not. P.S. I never said there were such things as perfect leaders. I think I've said all I can for now without rehashing my earlier points. Good day and Merry Christmas.
 

King sns

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There are also many ENTJ's that are short sighted simply because their "intuitive vision" is one track, (Ni). ESTJ's would technically have a broader view in many ways, Si considering how to do things according to protocol but also Ne considering all the potential outcomes. It makes for a much slower process, (ends up being less "direction" and more getting caught up in small things to avoid potential complications), but it's more tolerable in a lot of ways. ENTJ's foresight into the longer haul and quickly skimming over details does not mean they have a more comprehensive view of things. They often have one vision and they know how to get there fast.

In summary- broad vision, slow. Narrow vision, fast.
 

Tamske

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You argue good points however my mind still hasn't been changed. Call me irrational but I've seen too much ESTJ short-sightedness/lack of seeing the forest in my time to start patting you guys on the back. However I will be honest that my criticism of ESTJ in this regard is not any greater than the other SJ types (it's much worse for the ISTJs.) It's just a shame many from your number like to task/delegate to your subordinates with stuff which is just not that relevant to what the company is there for: to make money and grow and expects the subordinates to take the process very seriously when it is only minor in the grand scheme of things. How am I supposed to respect such a person as a superior? There is a very real sense that you guys only get things done because you only take a small number of factors into account and your vision is limited. A vision would obviously be easier to implement if it only needs to have ten factors assessed instead of a hundred but one must wonder whether a vision of that amount of scope would create better results than a bigger vision which manages to be implemented. But I suppose a number of ESTJs working together is perhaps enough to keep a business afloat.

I'm sure I'm working with stereotypes here but they do have their roots in my own direct experiences. Perhaps I'm right, perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps you are different, perhaps not. P.S. I never said there were such things as perfect leaders. I think I've said all I can for now without rehashing my earlier points. Good day and Merry Christmas.

I've backtracked your dialogue with EJCC and, as some people may expect, I'll fight along with the ESTJs. Because *Ï* have seen enough "vision" being chased as a holy grail, especially in education. Almost all pedagogues and education ministers (at least here in Belgium) try to make big changes to the system, thinking that improve it and complaining those pesky teachers won't listen. But most of the time they haven't seen the inside of a classroom since they left school themselves (except for a visit as Big Boss, where everyone tries to show their best side), and as such, they are working on IDEAL classrooms and IDEAL pupils etc. In theory, putting all pupils together, whether they are dumb and good at woodworking or clever and bad at sports, together, will improve the results of the poorest performing students. In practice... fat chance. Both the poorest and the best students will get frustrated and a frustrated student gets unruly. These "vision" people NEVER include the possibility of unruly students, teachers being less than perfect etc, schools having a very differing student body, etc etc etc. And every time a new minister is elected, we've have to turn our sails to the opposite side. This way we never get ahead. I'm not saying change is never welcome. A vision might be an improvement. But in education, I tend to err on the conservative side, because "change" has a huge cost. It shouldn't be done on the whim of a minister trying to put their mark on our schools.
 

Standuble

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I've backtracked your dialogue with EJCC and, as some people may expect, I'll fight along with the ESTJs. Because *Ï* have seen enough "vision" being chased as a holy grail, especially in education. Almost all pedagogues and education ministers (at least here in Belgium) try to make big changes to the system, thinking that improve it and complaining those pesky teachers won't listen. But most of the time they haven't seen the inside of a classroom since they left school themselves (except for a visit as Big Boss, where everyone tries to show their best side), and as such, they are working on IDEAL classrooms and IDEAL pupils etc. In theory, putting all pupils together, whether they are dumb and good at woodworking or clever and bad at sports, together, will improve the results of the poorest performing students. In practice... fat chance. Both the poorest and the best students will get frustrated and a frustrated student gets unruly. These "vision" people NEVER include the possibility of unruly students, teachers being less than perfect etc, schools having a very differing student body, etc etc etc. And every time a new minister is elected, we've have to turn our sails to the opposite side. This way we never get ahead. I'm not saying change is never welcome. A vision might be an improvement. But in education, I tend to err on the conservative side, because "change" has a huge cost. It shouldn't be done on the whim of a minister trying to put their mark on our schools.

IMO your entire response is completely irrelevant to your assertion that "vision" is bad, if anything I feel it supports it! The example you're using is a clear clase of implementation without considering the whole issue and the bigger picture and not the case that "change is bad." Not considering "unruly" students (what even is an unruly student?) isn't a case of not paying attention to details it's unaware of the underlying dynamics involved and not taking them and other possibilties into account when considering an action plan. It's the fault of the individual themselves not the capacity to have vision. Also, why would it need to have everyone is lumped together? I could just as easily conceive a vision revolving around multiple intelligences where a school year is divided based around their learning style (determined by numerous tests carried out at the end of the previous school year or during the holidays) and then divided again into classes which reflect their ability. It is segregated (perhaps even elitist) but caters to allowing students to achieve as they do best. In said vision I could make sure teachers are proficient in their respective learning style and also of suitable qualification. Even if I'm working with ideal situations like you said it's not necessarily doomed to fail as I'm heeding potential implications along the way. Where it may seem elitist its just cutting the crap which is less relevant (the education system here in the UK is full of this crap) so students can learn and the optimal results can occur.

Through vision I feel maximum/near maximum results have been achieved where having none (e.g. maintaining the status quo) would just allow existing problems to continue. Again, its a case of considering all the possible outcomes of your strategy on a wider scale instead of a small handful focused around the immediately observable data which I was criticising the ESTJs of! Less gets done because more is being considered but when you finally do act you're working on a far more refined model. I'm assuming that as a fellow Ne user you're also capable of seeing the possibility that something you can imagine won't work.

That is my response for what it is worth. Treat as you see fit for it is a tangent after all.
 

sculpting

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You argue good points however my mind still hasn't been changed. Call me irrational but I've seen too much ESTJ short-sightedness/lack of seeing the forest in my time to start patting you guys on the back. However I will be honest that my criticism of ESTJ in this regard is not any greater than the other SJ types (it's much worse for the ISTJs.) It's just a shame many from your number like to task/delegate to your subordinates with stuff which is just not that relevant to what the company is there for: to make money and grow and expects the subordinates to take the process very seriously when it is only minor in the grand scheme of things. How am I supposed to respect such a person as a superior? There is a very real sense that you guys only get things done because you only take a small number of factors into account and your vision is limited. A vision would obviously be easier to implement if it only needs to have ten factors assessed instead of a hundred but one must wonder whether a vision of that amount of scope would create better results than a bigger vision which manages to be implemented. But I suppose a number of ESTJs working together is perhaps enough to keep a business afloat.

I'm sure I'm working with stereotypes here but they do have their roots in my own direct experiences. Perhaps I'm right, perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps you are different, perhaps not. P.S. I never said there were such things as perfect leaders. I think I've said all I can for now without rehashing my earlier points. Good day and Merry Christmas.

Hmm, outside of my ESTJ love affair, what I observe with ESTJs is that excel at middle to upper level management. What they need is someone to help them expand thier Ne, so they can then act in the best manner to get things done! :)

ESTJs delegate like crazy and they excel at it-this amazes me, likely as due to my inferior Si, I get weird about details....if it isnt "perfect" or I have fully explored the possibilities, I get freaked out and wont make a call. But ESTJs dont always need to know the details, in order to make the plan work....it is really beautiful to see thier Te in action as the Scope of thier planning is so far past mine, yet also so much more delineated.

When I work with ESTJs, I play an advisory role....they start down a path and then I present a number of different alternatives they did not see-they are extremely open to consideration and treat the alternatives as new data-and will reselect a new, better path.

I love how willing they are to step in and take ownership of a tough problem and then to drive to a solution. They just get the job done. I have seen them totally write off people who seem unable to particpate in that process though-once they judge you as being a certain way, they will then "protect" you, by not giving you too much responsibility, since you dont seem quite up to handling it.

ENTJs amaze me, and I suspect they do better at the highest levels of executive management, but they are not always so great at middle to upper level-they are too forceful and willing to crush things around them, thus they create a lot of drama...the drama can then bounce back upon them and prevent them from getting the same amount of results as an ESTJ would-an ESTJ just gets the job done.
 
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