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  1. #11
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    You just had sex didn't you?
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  2. #12
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    I have at times bought into the negative hype on ESTJs, but I think an example of a really great one is Michael Bluth from "Arrested Development". He has many of the qualities described in the OP. He leans a little towards ESFJ, but in the end I think he is a T.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
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    (from Blue Velvet)

  3. #13
    Retired Nicki's Avatar
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    ESTJs always end up as my rolemodels. Probably because they actually accomplish things.

  4. #14
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Don't take them seriously and laugh at them. They will love you

    Oh and tell them they are lacking in common sense. It will all throw them off.

    Please provide feedback on my Nohari and Johari Window by clicking here: Nohari/Johari

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  5. #15
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    My second response explained my reasoning. Please read it.
    I had already read your second response, and my comment still stands, because you are clearly biased towards Te + N. Additionally:

    1. ENTJ -- i.e. "Te with vision" -- still has huge blind spots that get in the way of effective leadership, most notably figuring out how to make their vision happen (which is something that ESTJs are talented at);
    2. No one type is a perfect leader, and every type has a skill that would be extremely useful in a leadership position; and
    3. That's why you have subordinates -- to balance out your flaws and to do what it's impossible for you to do, since no one person can do everything.

    Calling any one type a "less X version" of some other type, is completely ignoring their unique strengths and uses in the world, professionally or otherwise.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I had already read your second response, and my comment still stands, because you are clearly biased towards Te + N. Additionally:

    1. ENTJ -- i.e. "Te with vision" -- still has huge blind spots that get in the way of effective leadership, most notably figuring out how to make their vision happen (which is something that ESTJs are talented at);
    2. No one type is a perfect leader, and every type has a skill that would be extremely useful in a leadership position; and
    3. That's why you have subordinates -- to balance out your flaws and to do what it's impossible for you to do, since no one person can do everything.

    Calling any one type a "less X version" of some other type, is completely ignoring their unique strengths and uses in the world, professionally or otherwise.
    You argue good points however my mind still hasn't been changed. Call me irrational but I've seen too much ESTJ short-sightedness/lack of seeing the forest in my time to start patting you guys on the back. However I will be honest that my criticism of ESTJ in this regard is not any greater than the other SJ types (it's much worse for the ISTJs.) It's just a shame many from your number like to task/delegate to your subordinates with stuff which is just not that relevant to what the company is there for: to make money and grow and expects the subordinates to take the process very seriously when it is only minor in the grand scheme of things. How am I supposed to respect such a person as a superior? There is a very real sense that you guys only get things done because you only take a small number of factors into account and your vision is limited. A vision would obviously be easier to implement if it only needs to have ten factors assessed instead of a hundred but one must wonder whether a vision of that amount of scope would create better results than a bigger vision which manages to be implemented. But I suppose a number of ESTJs working together is perhaps enough to keep a business afloat.

    I'm sure I'm working with stereotypes here but they do have their roots in my own direct experiences. Perhaps I'm right, perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps you are different, perhaps not. P.S. I never said there were such things as perfect leaders. I think I've said all I can for now without rehashing my earlier points. Good day and Merry Christmas.

  7. #17
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    There are also many ENTJ's that are short sighted simply because their "intuitive vision" is one track, (Ni). ESTJ's would technically have a broader view in many ways, Si considering how to do things according to protocol but also Ne considering all the potential outcomes. It makes for a much slower process, (ends up being less "direction" and more getting caught up in small things to avoid potential complications), but it's more tolerable in a lot of ways. ENTJ's foresight into the longer haul and quickly skimming over details does not mean they have a more comprehensive view of things. They often have one vision and they know how to get there fast.

    In summary- broad vision, slow. Narrow vision, fast.
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  8. #18
    Writing... Tamske's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    You argue good points however my mind still hasn't been changed. Call me irrational but I've seen too much ESTJ short-sightedness/lack of seeing the forest in my time to start patting you guys on the back. However I will be honest that my criticism of ESTJ in this regard is not any greater than the other SJ types (it's much worse for the ISTJs.) It's just a shame many from your number like to task/delegate to your subordinates with stuff which is just not that relevant to what the company is there for: to make money and grow and expects the subordinates to take the process very seriously when it is only minor in the grand scheme of things. How am I supposed to respect such a person as a superior? There is a very real sense that you guys only get things done because you only take a small number of factors into account and your vision is limited. A vision would obviously be easier to implement if it only needs to have ten factors assessed instead of a hundred but one must wonder whether a vision of that amount of scope would create better results than a bigger vision which manages to be implemented. But I suppose a number of ESTJs working together is perhaps enough to keep a business afloat.

    I'm sure I'm working with stereotypes here but they do have their roots in my own direct experiences. Perhaps I'm right, perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps you are different, perhaps not. P.S. I never said there were such things as perfect leaders. I think I've said all I can for now without rehashing my earlier points. Good day and Merry Christmas.
    I've backtracked your dialogue with EJCC and, as some people may expect, I'll fight along with the ESTJs. Because *Ï* have seen enough "vision" being chased as a holy grail, especially in education. Almost all pedagogues and education ministers (at least here in Belgium) try to make big changes to the system, thinking that improve it and complaining those pesky teachers won't listen. But most of the time they haven't seen the inside of a classroom since they left school themselves (except for a visit as Big Boss, where everyone tries to show their best side), and as such, they are working on IDEAL classrooms and IDEAL pupils etc. In theory, putting all pupils together, whether they are dumb and good at woodworking or clever and bad at sports, together, will improve the results of the poorest performing students. In practice... fat chance. Both the poorest and the best students will get frustrated and a frustrated student gets unruly. These "vision" people NEVER include the possibility of unruly students, teachers being less than perfect etc, schools having a very differing student body, etc etc etc. And every time a new minister is elected, we've have to turn our sails to the opposite side. This way we never get ahead. I'm not saying change is never welcome. A vision might be an improvement. But in education, I tend to err on the conservative side, because "change" has a huge cost. It shouldn't be done on the whim of a minister trying to put their mark on our schools.
    Got questions? Ask an ENTP!
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  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamske View Post
    I've backtracked your dialogue with EJCC and, as some people may expect, I'll fight along with the ESTJs. Because *Ï* have seen enough "vision" being chased as a holy grail, especially in education. Almost all pedagogues and education ministers (at least here in Belgium) try to make big changes to the system, thinking that improve it and complaining those pesky teachers won't listen. But most of the time they haven't seen the inside of a classroom since they left school themselves (except for a visit as Big Boss, where everyone tries to show their best side), and as such, they are working on IDEAL classrooms and IDEAL pupils etc. In theory, putting all pupils together, whether they are dumb and good at woodworking or clever and bad at sports, together, will improve the results of the poorest performing students. In practice... fat chance. Both the poorest and the best students will get frustrated and a frustrated student gets unruly. These "vision" people NEVER include the possibility of unruly students, teachers being less than perfect etc, schools having a very differing student body, etc etc etc. And every time a new minister is elected, we've have to turn our sails to the opposite side. This way we never get ahead. I'm not saying change is never welcome. A vision might be an improvement. But in education, I tend to err on the conservative side, because "change" has a huge cost. It shouldn't be done on the whim of a minister trying to put their mark on our schools.
    IMO your entire response is completely irrelevant to your assertion that "vision" is bad, if anything I feel it supports it! The example you're using is a clear clase of implementation without considering the whole issue and the bigger picture and not the case that "change is bad." Not considering "unruly" students (what even is an unruly student?) isn't a case of not paying attention to details it's unaware of the underlying dynamics involved and not taking them and other possibilties into account when considering an action plan. It's the fault of the individual themselves not the capacity to have vision. Also, why would it need to have everyone is lumped together? I could just as easily conceive a vision revolving around multiple intelligences where a school year is divided based around their learning style (determined by numerous tests carried out at the end of the previous school year or during the holidays) and then divided again into classes which reflect their ability. It is segregated (perhaps even elitist) but caters to allowing students to achieve as they do best. In said vision I could make sure teachers are proficient in their respective learning style and also of suitable qualification. Even if I'm working with ideal situations like you said it's not necessarily doomed to fail as I'm heeding potential implications along the way. Where it may seem elitist its just cutting the crap which is less relevant (the education system here in the UK is full of this crap) so students can learn and the optimal results can occur.

    Through vision I feel maximum/near maximum results have been achieved where having none (e.g. maintaining the status quo) would just allow existing problems to continue. Again, its a case of considering all the possible outcomes of your strategy on a wider scale instead of a small handful focused around the immediately observable data which I was criticising the ESTJs of! Less gets done because more is being considered but when you finally do act you're working on a far more refined model. I'm assuming that as a fellow Ne user you're also capable of seeing the possibility that something you can imagine won't work.

    That is my response for what it is worth. Treat as you see fit for it is a tangent after all.

  10. #20
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    You argue good points however my mind still hasn't been changed. Call me irrational but I've seen too much ESTJ short-sightedness/lack of seeing the forest in my time to start patting you guys on the back. However I will be honest that my criticism of ESTJ in this regard is not any greater than the other SJ types (it's much worse for the ISTJs.) It's just a shame many from your number like to task/delegate to your subordinates with stuff which is just not that relevant to what the company is there for: to make money and grow and expects the subordinates to take the process very seriously when it is only minor in the grand scheme of things. How am I supposed to respect such a person as a superior? There is a very real sense that you guys only get things done because you only take a small number of factors into account and your vision is limited. A vision would obviously be easier to implement if it only needs to have ten factors assessed instead of a hundred but one must wonder whether a vision of that amount of scope would create better results than a bigger vision which manages to be implemented. But I suppose a number of ESTJs working together is perhaps enough to keep a business afloat.

    I'm sure I'm working with stereotypes here but they do have their roots in my own direct experiences. Perhaps I'm right, perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps you are different, perhaps not. P.S. I never said there were such things as perfect leaders. I think I've said all I can for now without rehashing my earlier points. Good day and Merry Christmas.
    Hmm, outside of my ESTJ love affair, what I observe with ESTJs is that excel at middle to upper level management. What they need is someone to help them expand thier Ne, so they can then act in the best manner to get things done!

    ESTJs delegate like crazy and they excel at it-this amazes me, likely as due to my inferior Si, I get weird about details....if it isnt "perfect" or I have fully explored the possibilities, I get freaked out and wont make a call. But ESTJs dont always need to know the details, in order to make the plan work....it is really beautiful to see thier Te in action as the Scope of thier planning is so far past mine, yet also so much more delineated.

    When I work with ESTJs, I play an advisory role....they start down a path and then I present a number of different alternatives they did not see-they are extremely open to consideration and treat the alternatives as new data-and will reselect a new, better path.

    I love how willing they are to step in and take ownership of a tough problem and then to drive to a solution. They just get the job done. I have seen them totally write off people who seem unable to particpate in that process though-once they judge you as being a certain way, they will then "protect" you, by not giving you too much responsibility, since you dont seem quite up to handling it.

    ENTJs amaze me, and I suspect they do better at the highest levels of executive management, but they are not always so great at middle to upper level-they are too forceful and willing to crush things around them, thus they create a lot of drama...the drama can then bounce back upon them and prevent them from getting the same amount of results as an ESTJ would-an ESTJ just gets the job done.

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