[Si] Ask me about introverted sensation (Si).

[The Iron Giant]

My Fi thread is going pretty well, and I'm really good with Si as well.

So ask me about it, and again, let's learn together.

 

[SoraMayhem]

How does Si present as a tertiary function?

 

[The Iron Giant]

How does Si present as a tertiary function?

Generally, as a huge pain in the ass. Si is hard enough for a lot of people to stomach in the dominant position due to its devaluing nature, and ISxJs have so much practice and experience at that.

INxPs who take the time to understand and balance their aux Ne with their tertiary Si may find therein a new capacity for reflective thought, which counters Ne's impulse to leap to a "new" conclusion. ISTJ statement warning: often the correct solution is the one that's been done to death. It was done to death because it works.

 

[SoraMayhem]

Generally, as a huge pain in the ass. Si is hard enough for a lot of people to stomach in the dominant position due to its devaluing nature, and ISxJs have so much practice and experience at that.

INxPs who take the time to understand and balance their aux Ne with their tertiary Si may find therein a new capacity for reflective thought, which counters Ne's impulse to leap to a "new" conclusion. ISTJ statement warning: often the correct solution is the one that's been done to death. It was done to death because it works.

Hmm...
Would you say that Si has a tendency to make "rules"? Would you at all relate this function to Obsessive Compulsive Disorder/Personality Disorder?

 

[Thalassa]

Why is Si in the tertiary a pain in the ass? Could you explain that further?

 

[The Iron Giant]

Hmm...
Would you say that Si has a tendency to make "rules"? Would you at all relate this function to Obsessive Compulsive Disorder/Personality Disorder?

Si is all about subjective perception. The average Si user perceives the world through a veil or "shell" of impressions that are made up of their experiences. Si makes rules in the sense that it layers these impressions on top of everything, and decides that things not only are supposed to be a certain way, but they actually ARE a certain way. They're more laws of physics, in this sense, than rules.

Why is Si in the tertiary a pain in the ass? Could you explain that further?

Average to unhealthy Si doms are known for their inability to reach or touch who or what is really there, instead focusing on what they imagine. Tertiary Si is unlikely to be much more than a sink to the objectivity of aux Ne in my opinion, and when it pops up, I imagine it would be ugly.

 

[Thalassa]

Si is all about subjective perception. The average Si user perceives the world through a veil or "shell" of impressions that are made up of their experiences. Si makes rules in the sense that it layers these impressions on top of everything, and decides that things not only are supposed to be a certain way, but they actually ARE a certain way. They're more laws of physics, in this sense, than rules.



Average to unhealthy Si doms are known for their inability to reach or touch who or what is really there, instead focusing on what they imagine. Tertiary Si is unlikely to be much more than a sink to the objectivity of aux Ne in my opinion, and when it pops up, I imagine it would be ugly.

I understand what you're saying to a degree, but do you maybe have a more concrete example of how this might show in an INFP or INTP. Sorry if I am being a pest.

 

[skylights]

Generally, as a huge pain in the ass. Si is hard enough for a lot of people to stomach in the dominant position due to its devaluing nature, and ISxJs have so much practice and experience at that.

What do you mean by the bolded?

Si is all about subjective perception. The average Si user perceives the world through a veil or "shell" of impressions that are made up of their experiences. Si makes rules in the sense that it layers these impressions on top of everything, and decides that things not only are supposed to be a certain way, but they actually ARE a certain way. They're more laws of physics, in this sense, than rules.

Average to unhealthy Si doms are known for their inability to reach or touch who or what is really there, instead focusing on what they imagine.

This is fascinating. I get the sense that Si doms are much more in tune with reality than Ne doms. You seem to think otherwise? But, I mean, everyone is sort of shelled from reality. Everyone only has of reality what they perceive, which is never the full story. How do these Si impressions differ from Ne impressions in terms of how they change our day-to-day deciding and action-taking?

 

[Cellmold]

This is fascinating. I get the sense that Si doms are much more in tune with reality than Ne doms. You seem to think otherwise? But, I mean, everyone is sort of shelled from reality. Everyone only has of reality what they perceive, which is never the full story. How do these Si impressions differ from Ne impressions in terms of how they change our day-to-day deciding and action-taking?

Im not stephen but your quote here ties in nicely with my own questions based on reading Jung:

Is it true that Si is in fact more to do with an almost archetypal assemblage of personally experienced perceptions unique to each and every individual Si dom or user, rather than the collective memory bank of objective enforcement it is so often accused of being?

If this is true, is it fair to say that Si, far from being in touch with some objectively agreed on reality, is in fact more in touch with it's own personalised reality?

And then from this can I ask if this means that each and every Si dominant would actually be quite different depending on context and environment? Far from the adherence to standards of tradition or routine, they instead then adhere to their own traditions and routines which are once again of this personalised nature?

 

[Etherea]

Generally, as a huge pain in the ass. Si is hard enough for a lot of people to stomach in the dominant position due to its devaluing nature, and ISxJs have so much practice and experience at that.

INxPs who take the time to understand and balance their aux Ne with their tertiary Si may find therein a new capacity for reflective thought, which counters Ne's impulse to leap to a "new" conclusion. ISTJ statement warning: often the correct solution is the one that's been done to death. It was done to death because it works.

Is it likely then for ENFP's in the grip of Si to cling to statements such as "that's how it's always been done", even when it's becoming clear that what has been done isn't really working?

 

[Phoenix]

Is it likely then for ENFP's in the grip of Si to cling to statements such as "that's how it's always been done", even when it's becoming clear that what has been done isn't really working?

Yes. From what I've read, that is exactly how Inferior Si works. It dominates Ne completely and over-rules it.

 

[skylights]

Far from the adherence to standards of tradition or routine, they instead then adhere to their own traditions and routines which are once again of this personalised nature?

From my experience with two Si users, one dom and one aux, this is VERY true. A Ni aux I know actually has some of these "routine" elements too. She calls her before-bed prep her "ritual". I think it's very interesting, the kinds of structure that Pi weaves into life. It seems like Pi is forward-moving but also recurrent. Pe is forward-moving alone.

I would assume you are more likely to see elements of adherence to social standards in SFJs, who are more interested in collective harmony, but even then my ESFJ mom has never adopted social standards because they're there - if anything, she plays the social game better than most people I know, both keeping her own integrity and being very good at smoothing conflict out in the social sphere. I really think that is a gift of SJs. They know how to take what's there and how to work with it, while maintaining their own integrity. N idealists have a much harder time with that - we always want things to change first (NP) or we want to change the structure of things (NJ) and feel that we will lose integrity otherwise. I wonder if the boundary-defining nature of Si has anything to do with that.

Is it likely then for ENFP's in the grip of Si to cling to statements such as "that's how it's always been done", even when it's becoming clear that what has been done isn't really working?

I will get surprisingly irritated if our family breaks Christmas traditions without reason, or if holidays aren't celebrated on the holiday, or if things at work aren't done the way they are "supposed" to be done just because someone doesn't feel like doing them. I guess to me, there is a good reason we do things this way, and it's inextricably tied into the definition of each of those things (eg a holiday is a holy day), and it's frustrating when people override the group and/or tradition and deviate (even though usually there is a reason why they are deviating) - it feels like they are placing their individual priorities over collective priorities. I assume this is a manifestation of inferior Si with a little Fi thrown in.

 

[RoadPaveMent]

I will get surprisingly irritated if our family breaks Christmas traditions without reason, or if holidays aren't celebrated on the holiday, or if things at work aren't done the way they are "supposed" to be done just because someone doesn't feel like doing them. I guess to me, there is a good reason we do things this way, and it's inextricably tied into the definition of each of those things (eg a holiday is a holy day), and it's frustrating when people override the group and/or tradition and deviate (even though usually there is a reason why they are deviating) - it feels like they are placing their individual priorities over collective priorities. I assume this is a manifestation of inferior Si with a little Fi thrown in.

That's funny. I'm exactly the opposite. If we can't do something on the specified holiday day, then we can't do something on that holiday day and there's nothing anyone can do about it. I also feel like if there's a better or freer day or a day with nicer weather, therefore making the holiday more enjoyable (in my opinion), then there's no reason not to move the holiday.

 

[The Iron Giant]

I understand what you're saying to a degree, but do you maybe have a more concrete example of how this might show in an INFP or INTP. Sorry if I am being a pest.

Sure, no problem. I have known a few INFPs who bear the common Fi dom challenge of holding serious grudges. But while ISFPs seem to be more ready to let go of said grudges when the source is concretely proven incredible or irrelevant, the INFPs seem to have a bit more of a death grip on these. One might expect their aux Ne to give them a little more flexibility with releasing these, but my personal experience has been that Se-Ni is better at this than Ne-Si.

I hope that helps... it looks a little nebulous now that I have it down in text.

 

[The Iron Giant]

What do you mean by the bolded?

Si at its worst doesn't perceive the object directly, only an impression of it. The object is only indirectly relevant, so is devalued. From Jung's description of the introverted sensation type (ISxJ):

Normally the object is not consciously devalued in the least, but its stimulus is removed from it and immediately replaced by a subjective reaction no longer related to the reality of the object. This naturally has the same effect as devaluation. Such a type can easily make one question why one should exist at all, or why objects in general should have any justification for their existence since everything essential still goes on happening without them.

This is fascinating. I get the sense that Si doms are much more in tune with reality than Ne doms. You seem to think otherwise? But, I mean, everyone is sort of shelled from reality. Everyone only has of reality what they perceive, which is never the full story. How do these Si impressions differ from Ne impressions in terms of how they change our day-to-day deciding and action-taking?

Ne perceives an object's hidden properties, while Si perceives the user's experientially generated impressions of the object. While Ne can be wrong, and often is, Si without a strong critical eye is in effect ALWAYS wrong, because it's not perceiving the object at all. Think of Plato's allegory of the cave: the observer sees only shadows. This is a similar concept, though the Si user has more experience than the observer in the cave, so can make more educated guesses on what the object is.

In the real world, they only have an indirect impact on deciding and action taking, because those are handled by judging functions.

 

[The Iron Giant]

Is it true that Si is in fact more to do with an almost archetypal assemblage of personally experienced perceptions unique to each and every individual Si dom or user, rather than the collective memory bank of objective enforcement it is so often accused of being?

Yes, I think so. The user's unique perceptions, however shaped by objective fact, are still based in impressions, so are very personal. However, since Si will be paired with Te or Fe, that becomes a kind of double-barreled shotgun of snap judgment and enforcement in practice. I think the Fe user will come across a bit softer though, because the social expectation of adaptation makes them more flexible.

If this is true, is it fair to say that Si, far from being in touch with some objectively agreed on reality, is in fact more in touch with it's own personalised reality?

Bull's eye.

And then from this can I ask if this means that each and every Si dominant would actually be quite different depending on context and environment? Far from the adherence to standards of tradition or routine, they instead then adhere to their own traditions and routines which are once again of this personalised nature?

Definitely so. Keirsey and others label us as "traditional," and some would call us conservative. How traditional and conservative am I? Decide for yourself. I've been called old fashioned in a lot of ways. I have tattoos, was in an open marriage, practiced BDSM, participated as a supporter of the LGBTA at school, and have dated outside my ethnicity several times.

 

[Phoenix]

I will get surprisingly irritated if our family breaks Christmas traditions without reason, or if holidays aren't celebrated on the holiday, or if things at work aren't done the way they are "supposed" to be done just because someone doesn't feel like doing them. I guess to me, there is a good reason we do things this way, and it's inextricably tied into the definition of each of those things (eg a holiday is a holy day), and it's frustrating when people override the group and/or tradition and deviate (even though usually there is a reason why they are deviating) - it feels like they are placing their individual priorities over collective priorities. I assume this is a manifestation of inferior Si with a little Fi thrown in.

^ This to me suggests that Si -- as well as the so stacking is definitely my blind-spot - and that I haven't experienced a grip or eruption of this sort in my life at least.

For me it totally doesn't matter when an occasion is celebrated, as long as it is celebrated at some point and celebrated well. There are times when I want to uphold certain traditions and continue to do things a certain way - but I always seem to have this breaking point. The idea of doing the same thing over and over again seems beyond mundane --- except that I have a nostalgic streak where I want to repeat an experience after a few years or something.

I would not like to get together with the same group of friends and do the same thing repeatedly. I would want a new experience every time. My father is an Si aux [and a 1] and he seems to have these very specific ways of doing things. For e.g. My mom isn't with him these days and her birthday was 2 days ago. Even though she wasn't here, he still bought a cake, lit the candles and had a cake cutting ceremony. Took a few pics and uploaded them. He has this tradition of never going empty handed to someone's house. He has many such quirks that have always seemed almost alien to me.

 

[Cellmold]

Definitely so. Keirsey and others label us as "traditional," and some would call us conservative. How traditional and conservative am I? Decide for yourself. I've been called old fashioned in a lot of ways. I have tattoos, was in an open marriage, practiced BDSM, participated as a supporter of the LGBTA at school, and have dated outside my ethnicity several times.

Aha great, thanks for the answer, actually you sound less traditional and conservative than I am!

 

[Phoenix]

Definitely so. Keirsey and others label us as "traditional," and some would call us conservative. How traditional and conservative am I? Decide for yourself. I've been called old fashioned in a lot of ways. I have tattoos, was in an open marriage, practiced BDSM, participated as a supporter of the LGBTA at school, and have dated outside my ethnicity several times.

Haha .. before my 20's, I was way more traditionalistic than you sound. My desire to act non-traditionally was controlled and restrained for the most part. Maybe it's because Si is actually my inferior and therefore I never could tell how much I could push the limits. My mind was much, much more deviant than I allowed myself to be practically.

 

[Thalassa]

Sure, no problem. I have known a few INFPs who bear the common Fi dom challenge of holding serious grudges. But while ISFPs seem to be more ready to let go of said grudges when the source is concretely proven incredible or irrelevant, the INFPs seem to have a bit more of a death grip on these. One might expect their aux Ne to give them a little more flexibility with releasing these, but my personal experience has been that Se-Ni is better at this than Ne-Si.

I hope that helps... it looks a little nebulous now that I have it down in text.

Oh that makes sense. I'm pretty notorious for not holding grudges so I look very baffling changeable to some, but yes I could see where tert Si could cause grudge-holding. An ISTJ I used to be close to asked me once if I thought SJs were door-slammers, and that he liked that I would never seemingly be completely "done" (barring something horrible, like abuse, flagrant disrespect, etc)...but I wonder if it's related to Si, I've always heard it in conjunction with INFJs, but maybe it's actually Si which causes this.