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  1. #11
    Senior Member Phoenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Etherea View Post
    Is it likely then for ENFP's in the grip of Si to cling to statements such as "that's how it's always been done", even when it's becoming clear that what has been done isn't really working?
    Yes. From what I've read, that is exactly how Inferior Si works. It dominates Ne completely and over-rules it.

  2. #12
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    Far from the adherence to standards of tradition or routine, they instead then adhere to their own traditions and routines which are once again of this personalised nature?
    From my experience with two Si users, one dom and one aux, this is VERY true. A Ni aux I know actually has some of these "routine" elements too. She calls her before-bed prep her "ritual". I think it's very interesting, the kinds of structure that Pi weaves into life. It seems like Pi is forward-moving but also recurrent. Pe is forward-moving alone.

    I would assume you are more likely to see elements of adherence to social standards in SFJs, who are more interested in collective harmony, but even then my ESFJ mom has never adopted social standards because they're there - if anything, she plays the social game better than most people I know, both keeping her own integrity and being very good at smoothing conflict out in the social sphere. I really think that is a gift of SJs. They know how to take what's there and how to work with it, while maintaining their own integrity. N idealists have a much harder time with that - we always want things to change first (NP) or we want to change the structure of things (NJ) and feel that we will lose integrity otherwise. I wonder if the boundary-defining nature of Si has anything to do with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Etherea View Post
    Is it likely then for ENFP's in the grip of Si to cling to statements such as "that's how it's always been done", even when it's becoming clear that what has been done isn't really working?
    I will get surprisingly irritated if our family breaks Christmas traditions without reason, or if holidays aren't celebrated on the holiday, or if things at work aren't done the way they are "supposed" to be done just because someone doesn't feel like doing them. I guess to me, there is a good reason we do things this way, and it's inextricably tied into the definition of each of those things (eg a holiday is a holy day), and it's frustrating when people override the group and/or tradition and deviate (even though usually there is a reason why they are deviating) - it feels like they are placing their individual priorities over collective priorities. I assume this is a manifestation of inferior Si with a little Fi thrown in.

  3. #13
    Member RoadPaveMent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I will get surprisingly irritated if our family breaks Christmas traditions without reason, or if holidays aren't celebrated on the holiday, or if things at work aren't done the way they are "supposed" to be done just because someone doesn't feel like doing them. I guess to me, there is a good reason we do things this way, and it's inextricably tied into the definition of each of those things (eg a holiday is a holy day), and it's frustrating when people override the group and/or tradition and deviate (even though usually there is a reason why they are deviating) - it feels like they are placing their individual priorities over collective priorities. I assume this is a manifestation of inferior Si with a little Fi thrown in.
    That's funny. I'm exactly the opposite. If we can't do something on the specified holiday day, then we can't do something on that holiday day and there's nothing anyone can do about it. I also feel like if there's a better or freer day or a day with nicer weather, therefore making the holiday more enjoyable (in my opinion), then there's no reason not to move the holiday.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    I understand what you're saying to a degree, but do you maybe have a more concrete example of how this might show in an INFP or INTP. Sorry if I am being a pest.
    Sure, no problem. I have known a few INFPs who bear the common Fi dom challenge of holding serious grudges. But while ISFPs seem to be more ready to let go of said grudges when the source is concretely proven incredible or irrelevant, the INFPs seem to have a bit more of a death grip on these. One might expect their aux Ne to give them a little more flexibility with releasing these, but my personal experience has been that Se-Ni is better at this than Ne-Si.

    I hope that helps... it looks a little nebulous now that I have it down in text.

  5. #15
    The Iron Giant
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    What do you mean by the bolded?
    Si at its worst doesn't perceive the object directly, only an impression of it. The object is only indirectly relevant, so is devalued. From Jung's description of the introverted sensation type (ISxJ):

    Quote Originally Posted by CF Jung
    Normally the object is not consciously devalued in the least, but its stimulus is removed from it and immediately replaced by a subjective reaction no longer related to the reality of the object. This naturally has the same effect as devaluation. Such a type can easily make one question why one should exist at all, or why objects in general should have any justification for their existence since everything essential still goes on happening without them.
    This is fascinating. I get the sense that Si doms are much more in tune with reality than Ne doms. You seem to think otherwise? But, I mean, everyone is sort of shelled from reality. Everyone only has of reality what they perceive, which is never the full story. How do these Si impressions differ from Ne impressions in terms of how they change our day-to-day deciding and action-taking?
    Ne perceives an object's hidden properties, while Si perceives the user's experientially generated impressions of the object. While Ne can be wrong, and often is, Si without a strong critical eye is in effect ALWAYS wrong, because it's not perceiving the object at all. Think of Plato's allegory of the cave: the observer sees only shadows. This is a similar concept, though the Si user has more experience than the observer in the cave, so can make more educated guesses on what the object is.

    In the real world, they only have an indirect impact on deciding and action taking, because those are handled by judging functions.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    Is it true that Si is in fact more to do with an almost archetypal assemblage of personally experienced perceptions unique to each and every individual Si dom or user, rather than the collective memory bank of objective enforcement it is so often accused of being?
    Yes, I think so. The user's unique perceptions, however shaped by objective fact, are still based in impressions, so are very personal. However, since Si will be paired with Te or Fe, that becomes a kind of double-barreled shotgun of snap judgment and enforcement in practice. I think the Fe user will come across a bit softer though, because the social expectation of adaptation makes them more flexible.

    If this is true, is it fair to say that Si, far from being in touch with some objectively agreed on reality, is in fact more in touch with it's own personalised reality?
    Bull's eye.

    And then from this can I ask if this means that each and every Si dominant would actually be quite different depending on context and environment? Far from the adherence to standards of tradition or routine, they instead then adhere to their own traditions and routines which are once again of this personalised nature?
    Definitely so. Keirsey and others label us as "traditional," and some would call us conservative. How traditional and conservative am I? Decide for yourself. I've been called old fashioned in a lot of ways. I have tattoos, was in an open marriage, practiced BDSM, participated as a supporter of the LGBTA at school, and have dated outside my ethnicity several times.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Phoenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I will get surprisingly irritated if our family breaks Christmas traditions without reason, or if holidays aren't celebrated on the holiday, or if things at work aren't done the way they are "supposed" to be done just because someone doesn't feel like doing them. I guess to me, there is a good reason we do things this way, and it's inextricably tied into the definition of each of those things (eg a holiday is a holy day), and it's frustrating when people override the group and/or tradition and deviate (even though usually there is a reason why they are deviating) - it feels like they are placing their individual priorities over collective priorities. I assume this is a manifestation of inferior Si with a little Fi thrown in.
    ^ This to me suggests that Si -- as well as the so stacking is definitely my blind-spot - and that I haven't experienced a grip or eruption of this sort in my life at least.

    For me it totally doesn't matter when an occasion is celebrated, as long as it is celebrated at some point and celebrated well. There are times when I want to uphold certain traditions and continue to do things a certain way - but I always seem to have this breaking point. The idea of doing the same thing over and over again seems beyond mundane --- except that I have a nostalgic streak where I want to repeat an experience after a few years or something.

    I would not like to get together with the same group of friends and do the same thing repeatedly. I would want a new experience every time. My father is an Si aux [and a 1] and he seems to have these very specific ways of doing things. For e.g. My mom isn't with him these days and her birthday was 2 days ago. Even though she wasn't here, he still bought a cake, lit the candles and had a cake cutting ceremony. Took a few pics and uploaded them. He has this tradition of never going empty handed to someone's house. He has many such quirks that have always seemed almost alien to me.

  8. #18
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen View Post

    Definitely so. Keirsey and others label us as "traditional," and some would call us conservative. How traditional and conservative am I? Decide for yourself. I've been called old fashioned in a lot of ways. I have tattoos, was in an open marriage, practiced BDSM, participated as a supporter of the LGBTA at school, and have dated outside my ethnicity several times.
    Aha great, thanks for the answer, actually you sound less traditional and conservative than I am!
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Phoenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
    Definitely so. Keirsey and others label us as "traditional," and some would call us conservative. How traditional and conservative am I? Decide for yourself. I've been called old fashioned in a lot of ways. I have tattoos, was in an open marriage, practiced BDSM, participated as a supporter of the LGBTA at school, and have dated outside my ethnicity several times.
    Haha .. before my 20's, I was way more traditionalistic than you sound. My desire to act non-traditionally was controlled and restrained for the most part. Maybe it's because Si is actually my inferior and therefore I never could tell how much I could push the limits. My mind was much, much more deviant than I allowed myself to be practically.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
    Sure, no problem. I have known a few INFPs who bear the common Fi dom challenge of holding serious grudges. But while ISFPs seem to be more ready to let go of said grudges when the source is concretely proven incredible or irrelevant, the INFPs seem to have a bit more of a death grip on these. One might expect their aux Ne to give them a little more flexibility with releasing these, but my personal experience has been that Se-Ni is better at this than Ne-Si.

    I hope that helps... it looks a little nebulous now that I have it down in text.
    Oh that makes sense. I'm pretty notorious for not holding grudges so I look very baffling changeable to some, but yes I could see where tert Si could cause grudge-holding. An ISTJ I used to be close to asked me once if I thought SJs were door-slammers, and that he liked that I would never seemingly be completely "done" (barring something horrible, like abuse, flagrant disrespect, etc)...but I wonder if it's related to Si, I've always heard it in conjunction with INFJs, but maybe it's actually Si which causes this.

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