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  1. #11
    Member tine5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Yes, ISTJs can be very intensely emotional, keeping it all inside. INTJs are like this, too, but the sources of emotion are less concrete, I would suspect, than for an ISTJ. Fi describes people who can certainly feel feelings, but you ask them to try to put words to their feelings, and they either refuse outright, or find themselves speechless even if they want to answer ... the feelings (good, bad or ugly) are simply indescribable. Fe people are much more capable of talking in terms of feelings and values in an open and "objective" (in the Jungian sense) manner.
    That's really helpful, thanks!
    I have tons of trouble putting feelings into words, especially really strong ones. I can't name/describe them, they're just there and I term them as 'good' or 'bad' if I'm asked.
    Would ISTJ females be more masculine or feminine? (would they try and be feminine because of the social environment or not care?)
    The indoors, oh God the indoors!

  2. #12
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    To me you sound very ISTJ. Im sorry I didn't post the links, I can't on my phone. I will later.

  3. #13
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tine5 View Post
    That's really helpful, thanks!
    I have tons of trouble putting feelings into words, especially really strong ones. I can't name/describe them, they're just there and I term them as 'good' or 'bad' if I'm asked.
    Would ISTJ females be more masculine or feminine? (would they try and be feminine because of the social environment or not care?)
    You're definitely describing tertiary Fi, I think.

    An interesting thing about xSTJ women, and especially ESTJ women, is that they often tend to go for being ultra-feminine. They don't do so in a passive way, but more in the velvet glove over the iron fist sort of way. This is in part, I believe, because Si tends to rely upon cultural archetypes: they react similarly to Fe in terms of cues that might provoke social disapproval or embarrassment. But it isn't the "social cues" so much as not measuring up to the idealized archetype that provokes the reaction, I believe.

    A lot of my understanding of Si comes from an ISTJ on another forum, who pointed out that, for example, to Si, a pencil isn't just a pencil, it gets compared to an internalized archetype of a pencil, that a certain brand of pencil is regarded as the epitome of the archetype, because it has just the right kind of eraser, and lead that doesn't break too easily, and wood that is soft and doesn't splinter when sharpened, and so on. Similarly, they will tend to internalize society's concepts of masculine and feminine, and endeavor to live up to them as appropriate.

    To compare to INTJ's Ni, there is no "pencil" archetype, but rather an abstract "writing utensil" concept, which covers pens, pencils, mechanical pencils, pens with erasable ink, dry erase markers and a whiteboard ... all the way to computers with printers or any of several NotePad apps that one might use with a smartphone ... to using one's finger to scribble in dust or sand. To Ni, the thought is "I need to write something down" and the mental search is for something that will allow one to do that. Ni types can appreciate the ideal pencil's perfect eraser and ideal lead, but it is very rarely what we look for.

    Thus Ni is stereotypically (this is typology, after all!) more likely to break with society's traditions and archetypes than Si, not because we don't recognize their value, but because those archetypes aren't uppermost in our minds as we watch and consider the world.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  4. #14
    Let's make this showy! raz's Avatar
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    This thread seems to either

    a) stereotype
    b) equate normal human reactions or things outside of personality with personality
    c) go into overly detailed and complex explanations of detailed theories with little relation to the world

    Seems about par for the course.


  5. #15
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Yeah, and then there are those who hide the fact that they don't know what they're talking about by implying that it's everyone else who doesn't know what they're talking about.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  6. #16
    Let's make this showy! raz's Avatar
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    Yeah, can't stand those people.

    This is why I tell people to do their own reading and then start asking other people. Misunderstandings can occur everywhere.


  7. #17
    Member tine5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    You're definitely describing tertiary Fi, I think.

    An interesting thing about xSTJ women, and especially ESTJ women, is that they often tend to go for being ultra-feminine. They don't do so in a passive way, but more in the velvet glove over the iron fist sort of way. This is in part, I believe, because Si tends to rely upon cultural archetypes: they react similarly to Fe in terms of cues that might provoke social disapproval or embarrassment. But it isn't the "social cues" so much as not measuring up to the idealized archetype that provokes the reaction, I believe.

    A lot of my understanding of Si comes from an ISTJ on another forum, who pointed out that, for example, to Si, a pencil isn't just a pencil, it gets compared to an internalized archetype of a pencil, that a certain brand of pencil is regarded as the epitome of the archetype, because it has just the right kind of eraser, and lead that doesn't break too easily, and wood that is soft and doesn't splinter when sharpened, and so on. Similarly, they will tend to internalize society's concepts of masculine and feminine, and endeavor to live up to them as appropriate.

    To compare to INTJ's Ni, there is no "pencil" archetype, but rather an abstract "writing utensil" concept, which covers pens, pencils, mechanical pencils, pens with erasable ink, dry erase markers and a whiteboard ... all the way to computers with printers or any of several NotePad apps that one might use with a smartphone ... to using one's finger to scribble in dust or sand. To Ni, the thought is "I need to write something down" and the mental search is for something that will allow one to do that. Ni types can appreciate the ideal pencil's perfect eraser and ideal lead, but it is very rarely what we look for.

    Thus Ni is stereotypically (this is typology, after all!) more likely to break with society's traditions and archetypes than Si, not because we don't recognize their value, but because those archetypes aren't uppermost in our minds as we watch and consider the world.
    Thank you, that was very helpful! So with an SiTe user who's female she would conform to social norms (or at least try/want to)? I find I'm also very emotional but can't display it right (I communicate my feelings badly so I come across as angry when I'm sad etc). Is that an ISTJ trait? I read that ISFJs tend to be more emotional, but I wasn't quite sure what that meant really, as in more expressive?
    Also, if an ISTJ suffered depression how would they differ? would they be more emotionally expressive/volatile?
    The indoors, oh God the indoors!

  8. #18
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tine5 View Post
    Thank you, that was very helpful! So with an SiTe user who's female she would conform to social norms (or at least try/want to)? I find I'm also very emotional but can't display it right (I communicate my feelings badly so I come across as angry when I'm sad etc). Is that an ISTJ trait?
    First question: That depends, it could go either way. Life is complicated. And while ISFJs are often said to be more openly emotional than ISTJs, they're both probably pretty private types...The main difference in that field is what their major concerns are when dealing with people: The balance between/among the people interacting (ISFJ?), or the practicality of the thing being discussed (ISTJ?). Not to mention that those two drives can overlap, too.
    Quote Originally Posted by tine5
    Also, if an ISTJ suffered depression how would they differ? would they be more emotionally expressive/volatile?
    Yes, I would think so. When I'm really stressed / emotionally disturbed, I feel like a crazy emotional mess. Of course, we always feel more emotional than we look to other people, I have found this time and time again. People say I hold a lot of my emotions back, so they never get any "feedback" on how I feel, just flatlined neutralness. It doesn't feel that way, because I can feel the emotion building up, so I assume others can notice it, too, but maybe I forget the step where I have to express it outwardly. It sure doesn't feel necessary to be more expressive...though maybe it could be beneficial in the end.
    Last edited by Cimarron; 05-12-2012 at 06:12 AM. Reason: "thing" specified
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    To me you sound very ISTJ. Im sorry I didn't post the links, I can't on my phone. I will later.
    Scroll down to the sections where it says things like "the extroverted feeling type" and "the introverted feeling type" and "the extroverted thinking type" and read those individual sections as pertains to finding your own type, for now, since you already know you're ISxJ.

    http://psychclassics.yorku.ca/Jung/types.htm

    Then this can help too...on this scroll down to where it says Hero (dominant) and read forward. You'll want to pay special attention to Good Parent (auxillary) and Child (tertiary) to see if you feel more Te/Fi or Fe/Ti...and looking at the shadow can help too.

    http://www.erictb.info/archetypes.html


  10. #20
    Senior Member sulfit's Avatar
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    Visually:
    For ISFJ see the photos under SEI/ISFp. They often have welcoming, smiley, friendly expressions: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ortraits-Alpha

    For ISTJ see the photos under SLI/ISTp. They look more serious and withdrawn: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ortraits-Delta

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