[SJ] SJ's in different countries

[King sns]

Hi SJ's and everyone else.

I think this topic has been doneish in different forms before.

I noticed that American people are more likely to appear "SJ" in the American form and people from some other cultures are more likely to appear NT- I think that some countries value science, innovation, forward movement, etc. more than others. I was wondering if you thought that the "NT's" from other countries may actually be SJ's. Because they are upholding a tradition of NT values (if that makes sense.) -(Also could apply to other types too- the SP country could have SJ's that are upholding SP values/tradition.) I think of type in terms of motivations instead of actions. Are SJ's the definers and creators of traditions or are they the determiners/ followers of traditions?
What do you think?

(This could also apply to SJ's in unusual situations/ subcultures as well.)

 

[FDG]

Not even countries. Here (in Italy), stereotypical SJs can differ even from region to region, hell, from province to province.

Example: in my region (Veneto), people from lower-lying, seaside places are generally fashion/appearance conscious and obsessed with making money. People from the highlands are really interested in science and technology and dress like shit / don't give a fuck about it. and can be pretty direct/rude. I've had SJ girlfriends coming from both places and they were clearly differentiated from this POV (needless to say, I was/am much more compatible with the latter type).

 

[Giggly]

Yes, I think it depends on where you live, SJ's will seem different if they are from different places. I'm sure it's also true in America.

 

[Speed Gavroche]

SJs who live in France follows the norms: they are alsmost all socialists and think the end of welfare state would lead to chaos and the end of the world.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

interesting post subject [MENTION=5489]shortnsweet[/MENTION]. Based on personal experience, I would say they uphold values/traditions. Looking forward to seeing what other countries besides the USA think.

 

[IZthe411]

I think you might have an SJ on your hands if they make a lot of references and comparisons to the way things are done in their country. I've seen it done regionally here in the US as well. Two distinct people come to mind. Everything you talk about eventually is referenced to how it was done back in NY or New Orleans.

 

[entropie]

Germany is SJ/SP central: people are deeply rooted in traditions, which basically are most often reasons to get drunk together and therefore aint too bad. People in my region are very social and identify themselves over clubs like soccer clubs or the dachshund club.

As an individualist you have it hard here, as a dreamer doubly so. Most people are past-oriented realists and factualists which makes life kinda depressive at times. I had to learn to make my dreams and big picture understandings realistically graspable to convince people at all. Still sometimes I feel sucked dry by the SJs at my work, cause they somehow trust me, at least thats how it feels, by asking me questions about a future development en detail until my mind nearly collapses cause I cant make even more things up. Then in the end tho they decide like they want and pay little respect to my advise, which from experience nearly always played out bad for them.

The worst thing is their taste in art, fashion or music. Having SJs as trendsetters really ruins it for you and people run around with watches or glasses like these, which just makes them look stupid:

I have an equal good feeling aswell as bad feeling with my SJs. I like their loyality, I like my friends, their humor and wouldnt want to miss them. Still the way I can talk to them will be never the one that I want, cause what intrests me doesnt intrest them and they never intrest themselves in me like I do in them. I am pretty sure that I wont die in Germany.

 

[Owfin]

Traditions? I'm not aware of any specific to my area...

I have been told (by confirmed SJs and non SJs alike) that I have a good sense of style. I don't try to be a trendsetter. I just appreciate clean, crisp design. In my view, after a certain point, improving function ends up improving form too, because an intuitive (not in the MBTI sense) design can increase efficiency, and good function cuts out unneeded junk slowing it down, which also is a good way to improve form.

 

[Flux]

Are SJ's the definers and creators of traditions or are they the determiners/ followers of traditions?
What do you think?

In a way I see that all the types have a specific role: the things they do. And, in the end they all work together to form a coherent whole. In a way, I see SJs as pillars of society that form a maintenance type of role. So in this way, they maintain, determine, and follow traditions and the norms of society.

Have you studied sociology at all? There is a theory called social constructionism: it states that people actively create their social reality. It's actually quite interesting.

This is wikipedia, but it is still quite informative: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_constructionism

 

[King sns]

In a way I see that all the types have a specific role: the things they do. And, in the end they all work together to form a coherent whole. In a way, I see SJs as pillars of society that form a maintenance type of role. So in this way, they maintain, determine, and follow traditions and the norms of society.

Have you studied sociology at all? There is a theory called social constructionism: it states that people actively create their social reality. It's actually quite interesting.

This is wikipedia, but it is still quite informative: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_constructionism

Yeah! This is kind of where I'm going with this. Looked at your link but didn't read the whole thing yet (so excuse me if I misinterpreted). I was thinking- if someone's group or society is based on things that are universally NT-like, wouldn't the SJ determine that maintaining NT-like society is the way to go? And consequently start acting and considering things like an NT? Or would they stand firm in their SJness, SJ thoughts, and SJ behaviors and let the social norms follow?

 

[Flux]

Yeah! This is kind of where I'm going with this. Looked at your link but didn't read the whole thing yet (so excuse me if I misinterpreted). I was thinking- if someone's group or society is based on things that are universally NT-like, wouldn't the SJ determine that maintaining NT-like society is the way to go? And consequently start acting and considering things like an NT?

Hmm, I think this is true to a certain extent. I mean many SJs are aware of and use the scientific method, but it has just become the established method for creating an experiment. I see SJs as being more content with the status quo than NTs and are less willing to change things. Unless, of course a tradition or practice no longer applies and suddenly seems impractical. I'm just thinking out loud.

 

[King sns]

Hmm, I think this is true to a certain extent. I mean many SJs are aware of and use the scientific method, but it has just become the established method for creating an experiment. I see SJs as being more content with the status quo than NTs and are less willing to change things. Unless, of course a tradition or practice no longer applies and suddenly seems impractical. I'm just thinking out loud.

Yeah, I'm kind of thinking out loud too. (And see edit avove) What if change and challenging the status quo is what the SJ is surrounded by and life continues to work well in that environment? The SJ is totally surrounded by people of other types or lifestyles and values of other types? Does the SJ try to slow down the change and help people think about it? Or does the SJ adopt this as the status quo and start to meld in? (I'm really inclined to think the first is true, but that will then make the SJ a strange and unique individual under the circumstance when SJ's normally would be common and blend in.) If you have an entire society full of rapidly changing culture and advancement, where does the SJ fit?

 

[Owfin]

Yeah, I'm kind of thinking out loud too. (And see edit avove) What if change and challenging the status quo is what the SJ is surrounded by and life continues to work well in that environment? The SJ is totally surrounded by people of other types or lifestyles and values of other types? Does the SJ try to slow down the change and help people think about it? Or does the SJ adopt this as the status quo and start to meld in? (I'm really inclined to think the first is true, but that will then make the SJ a strange and unique individual under the circumstance when SJ's normally would be common and blend in.) If you have an entire society full of rapidly changing culture and advancement, where does the SJ fit?

I would do whatever I personally thought was right. If I think that the change is stupid and I won't face many ill effects from not following, I won't follow. If I agree with the change, I'll do it. If I think the change is stupid but I can see that not changing is going to leave me at a disadvantage, I can compromise. It isn't as much of a paradox as you make it out to be.

 

[Flux]

In the end, SJs are all people so I don't think there is a way to develop a complete overarching theory that explains everything. I just try to understand individual people I come in contact with. Aren't we all exceptions to the rule in one way or another?

 

[Lightyear]

I am pretty sure that I wont die in Germany.

Same here.

Yes Germany is SJ to the core, am on holiday in Germany at the moment and the lack of vision and the desperate need for security and order here feel suffocating to me.

To answer the OP, I can't think of a specific country but I used to have a German boss who is a SJ but she was brought up in a hippy commune so her world view is a bit quirky and alternative. I think it really depends a lot on their upbringing what traditions SJs will hold later in life.

I would really like to know the differences between an American SJ and a German SJ. I guess an American SJ would have far more of an entrepeneurial edge instead of being so focussed on what could go wrong all the time.

 

[Istbkleta]

Yes Germany is SJ to the core, am on holiday in Germany at the moment and the lack of vision and the desperate need for security and order here feel suffocating to me.

Actually a study on investment biases shows INFJs as the most risk averse when choosing investments.

 

[Southern Kross]

That's an interesting thought shortnsweet

Hmmm, I'm struggling to come up with a overall explanation of what New Zealand SJs are like. As a culture NZ is very XSTP so often you find the SJs mimic that sort of behaviour to a degree: practical, laid-back, sociable, jocular, no-frills, physically oriented, fun-loving, go-with-the flow approach etc. Society here tends to look down on those that are bookish, intellectual, fussy, too structured or those that look like they care too much about anything. Of course many people are like this/have to be like this to some extent but the point is to not look like you are doing so.

In terms of traditions, we're not very religious or militaristic as a country, so these aren't really things I would specifically relate to SJs. In many ways I would consider them the people that run community organisations (rotary, school PTAs, coach sports teams etc). From my perspective they seem politically conservative but as a culture we tend to be left leaning, so compared to many other countries our SJs would seem rather liberal. Perhaps I could also say they are outdoorsy and are associated with farming which is very central to the overall culture. NZ culture is generally fine with change and I wouldn't say NZ SJs are overly against it; although you do get that resistance to changing ethnic makeup due to immigration for example.

 

[skylights]

SJ mom and SJ boyfriend are both american agnostic liberals... neither into patriotism... both quite progressive...

i think it is a fair point to ask, are SJs more affected by their cultural milieu, but then i don't see why Ns, who are highly dependent on the ideascape, or SPs who are highly environmentally-attuned, wouldn't be affected either. not to mention all extraverts are going to be significantly affected by external variables and all perceivers are going to be significantly affected by the information available to them.

actually when i (american) studied abroad, i felt strongly ESFP in northern europe. and quite INTJ in comparison to my spanish friends!

Are SJ's the definers and creators of traditions or are they the determiners/ followers of traditions?
What do you think?

i think many non-SJ people (not aimed at you, shortnsweet) do not really understand what it means for an SJ to "uphold tradition". forgive (and please correct) me if i'm wrong, SJs, but i think it is more about relying on previous hands-on experience and personally accumulated knowledge to approach things, rather than the nebulous idea of arcane illogical-custom-holding "tradition" that many Ns seem to assume. as far as i have experienced, most SJs are quick to discard past holdover that gets in the way of progress... a Si-stunted NP is more likely to latch onto "tradition" as such.

in more direct response to your question, i think it is SJs who are both the definers and determiners of trusted methods and routine maintenance of life. in that sense, there may be a large initial gap between SJs of different cultures, but i think an SJ popped into another country would quickly adapt (but hold on to the useful "traditions" of their previous culture).

 

[Giggly]

Thought provoking thread.

SJ mom and SJ boyfriend are both american agnostic liberals... neither into patriotism... both quite progressive...

i think it is a fair point to ask, are SJs more affected by their cultural milieu, but then i don't see why Ns, who are highly dependent on the ideascape, or SPs who are highly environmentally-attuned, wouldn't be affected either. not to mention all extraverts are going to be significantly affected by external variables and all perceivers are going to be significantly affected by the information available to them.

actually when i (american) studied abroad, i felt strongly ESFP in northern europe. and quite INTJ in comparison to my spanish friends!



i think many non-SJ people (not aimed at you, shortnsweet) do not really understand what it means for an SJ to "uphold tradition". forgive (and please correct) me if i'm wrong, SJs, but i think it is more about relying on previous hands-on experience and personally accumulated knowledge to approach things, rather than the nebulous idea of arcane illogical-custom-holding "tradition" that many Ns seem to assume. as far as i have experienced, most SJs are quick to discard past holdover that gets in the way of progress... a Si-stunted NP is more likely to latch onto "tradition" as such.

in more direct response to your question, i think it is SJs who are both the definers and determiners of trusted methods and routine maintenance of life. in that sense, there may be a large initial gap between SJs of different cultures, but i think an SJ popped into another country would quickly adapt (but hold on to the useful "traditions" of their previous culture).

Great post.