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  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by shortnsweet View Post
    Yeah! This is kind of where I'm going with this. Looked at your link but didn't read the whole thing yet (so excuse me if I misinterpreted). I was thinking- if someone's group or society is based on things that are universally NT-like, wouldn't the SJ determine that maintaining NT-like society is the way to go? And consequently start acting and considering things like an NT?
    Hmm, I think this is true to a certain extent. I mean many SJs are aware of and use the scientific method, but it has just become the established method for creating an experiment. I see SJs as being more content with the status quo than NTs and are less willing to change things. Unless, of course a tradition or practice no longer applies and suddenly seems impractical. I'm just thinking out loud.

  2. #12
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flux View Post
    Hmm, I think this is true to a certain extent. I mean many SJs are aware of and use the scientific method, but it has just become the established method for creating an experiment. I see SJs as being more content with the status quo than NTs and are less willing to change things. Unless, of course a tradition or practice no longer applies and suddenly seems impractical. I'm just thinking out loud.
    Yeah, I'm kind of thinking out loud too. (And see edit avove) What if change and challenging the status quo is what the SJ is surrounded by and life continues to work well in that environment? The SJ is totally surrounded by people of other types or lifestyles and values of other types? Does the SJ try to slow down the change and help people think about it? Or does the SJ adopt this as the status quo and start to meld in? (I'm really inclined to think the first is true, but that will then make the SJ a strange and unique individual under the circumstance when SJ's normally would be common and blend in.) If you have an entire society full of rapidly changing culture and advancement, where does the SJ fit?
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  3. #13
    Senior Member Owfin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shortnsweet View Post
    Yeah, I'm kind of thinking out loud too. (And see edit avove) What if change and challenging the status quo is what the SJ is surrounded by and life continues to work well in that environment? The SJ is totally surrounded by people of other types or lifestyles and values of other types? Does the SJ try to slow down the change and help people think about it? Or does the SJ adopt this as the status quo and start to meld in? (I'm really inclined to think the first is true, but that will then make the SJ a strange and unique individual under the circumstance when SJ's normally would be common and blend in.) If you have an entire society full of rapidly changing culture and advancement, where does the SJ fit?
    I would do whatever I personally thought was right. If I think that the change is stupid and I won't face many ill effects from not following, I won't follow. If I agree with the change, I'll do it. If I think the change is stupid but I can see that not changing is going to leave me at a disadvantage, I can compromise. It isn't as much of a paradox as you make it out to be.
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  4. #14

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    In the end, SJs are all people so I don't think there is a way to develop a complete overarching theory that explains everything. I just try to understand individual people I come in contact with. Aren't we all exceptions to the rule in one way or another?

  5. #15
    Senior Member Lightyear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    I am pretty sure that I wont die in Germany.
    Same here.

    Yes Germany is SJ to the core, am on holiday in Germany at the moment and the lack of vision and the desperate need for security and order here feel suffocating to me.

    To answer the OP, I can't think of a specific country but I used to have a German boss who is a SJ but she was brought up in a hippy commune so her world view is a bit quirky and alternative. I think it really depends a lot on their upbringing what traditions SJs will hold later in life.

    I would really like to know the differences between an American SJ and a German SJ. I guess an American SJ would have far more of an entrepeneurial edge instead of being so focussed on what could go wrong all the time.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightyear View Post
    Yes Germany is SJ to the core, am on holiday in Germany at the moment and the lack of vision and the desperate need for security and order here feel suffocating to me.
    Actually a study on investment biases shows INFJs as the most risk averse when choosing investments.

  7. #17
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    That's an interesting thought shortnsweet

    Hmmm, I'm struggling to come up with a overall explanation of what New Zealand SJs are like. As a culture NZ is very XSTP so often you find the SJs mimic that sort of behaviour to a degree: practical, laid-back, sociable, jocular, no-frills, physically oriented, fun-loving, go-with-the flow approach etc. Society here tends to look down on those that are bookish, intellectual, fussy, too structured or those that look like they care too much about anything. Of course many people are like this/have to be like this to some extent but the point is to not look like you are doing so.

    In terms of traditions, we're not very religious or militaristic as a country, so these aren't really things I would specifically relate to SJs. In many ways I would consider them the people that run community organisations (rotary, school PTAs, coach sports teams etc). From my perspective they seem politically conservative but as a culture we tend to be left leaning, so compared to many other countries our SJs would seem rather liberal. Perhaps I could also say they are outdoorsy and are associated with farming which is very central to the overall culture. NZ culture is generally fine with change and I wouldn't say NZ SJs are overly against it; although you do get that resistance to changing ethnic makeup due to immigration for example.
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  8. #18
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    SJ mom and SJ boyfriend are both american agnostic liberals... neither into patriotism... both quite progressive...

    i think it is a fair point to ask, are SJs more affected by their cultural milieu, but then i don't see why Ns, who are highly dependent on the ideascape, or SPs who are highly environmentally-attuned, wouldn't be affected either. not to mention all extraverts are going to be significantly affected by external variables and all perceivers are going to be significantly affected by the information available to them.

    actually when i (american) studied abroad, i felt strongly ESFP in northern europe. and quite INTJ in comparison to my spanish friends!

    Quote Originally Posted by shortnsweet
    Are SJ's the definers and creators of traditions or are they the determiners/ followers of traditions?
    What do you think?
    i think many non-SJ people (not aimed at you, shortnsweet) do not really understand what it means for an SJ to "uphold tradition". forgive (and please correct) me if i'm wrong, SJs, but i think it is more about relying on previous hands-on experience and personally accumulated knowledge to approach things, rather than the nebulous idea of arcane illogical-custom-holding "tradition" that many Ns seem to assume. as far as i have experienced, most SJs are quick to discard past holdover that gets in the way of progress... a Si-stunted NP is more likely to latch onto "tradition" as such.

    in more direct response to your question, i think it is SJs who are both the definers and determiners of trusted methods and routine maintenance of life. in that sense, there may be a large initial gap between SJs of different cultures, but i think an SJ popped into another country would quickly adapt (but hold on to the useful "traditions" of their previous culture).

  9. #19
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Thought provoking thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    SJ mom and SJ boyfriend are both american agnostic liberals... neither into patriotism... both quite progressive...

    i think it is a fair point to ask, are SJs more affected by their cultural milieu, but then i don't see why Ns, who are highly dependent on the ideascape, or SPs who are highly environmentally-attuned, wouldn't be affected either. not to mention all extraverts are going to be significantly affected by external variables and all perceivers are going to be significantly affected by the information available to them.

    actually when i (american) studied abroad, i felt strongly ESFP in northern europe. and quite INTJ in comparison to my spanish friends!



    i think many non-SJ people (not aimed at you, shortnsweet) do not really understand what it means for an SJ to "uphold tradition". forgive (and please correct) me if i'm wrong, SJs, but i think it is more about relying on previous hands-on experience and personally accumulated knowledge to approach things, rather than the nebulous idea of arcane illogical-custom-holding "tradition" that many Ns seem to assume. as far as i have experienced, most SJs are quick to discard past holdover that gets in the way of progress... a Si-stunted NP is more likely to latch onto "tradition" as such.

    in more direct response to your question, i think it is SJs who are both the definers and determiners of trusted methods and routine maintenance of life. in that sense, there may be a large initial gap between SJs of different cultures, but i think an SJ popped into another country would quickly adapt (but hold on to the useful "traditions" of their previous culture).
    Great post.

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