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  1. #121
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    And there have been loads of children throughout history resulting from unplanned pregnancies, in or out of married relationships. Women of all types have sex and are capable of conceiving. In so many cases motherhood has barely been a "choice", and that would apply to the generation of our moms and grandmothers too, in large part.
    And that would often not result in the kind of prolonged, constant contact with your mother that I'm talking about, which is part of my (half-hearted) point.

    As for ESFJ men, I don't think I have a huge problem identifying them. One of my best friends is one, and I think he "acts" ESTPish, because he wants to be seen that way. Maybe I have trouble identifying ISFJ men, though.
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  2. #122
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    And that would often not result in the kind of prolonged, constant contact with your mother that I'm talking about, which is part of my (half-hearted) point.
    It just as often would result in that type of "prolonged constant contact" though. Scenario: married couple doesn't want kids but she falls pregnant accidentally. That doesn't automatically mean that she is going to be a distant mother or dislike the kid. (I know enough people who have been in this scenario and they have usually turned out to be great moms.)

    Although I don't have statistics to hand, there are also huge numbers of single moms who end up with a kid and don't give them up for adoption, or abandon them, or become distant neglectful moms. I feel there are way way way too many variables here. I would suspect too that a mom in such a situation might seem less like an xSFJ type because of not having that traditional "nuclear family" background. Regardless of what her real type is, I would guess that a mom in a "traditional family" is more likely to be typed as xSFJ, and a single mom who is working constantly to support herself and the child, dating different guys, etc might seem more like...well, like xxFP or xxTP, anyway.

    I also very much doubt that every xSFJ woman "wants" kids. How can things possibly be that simple?
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  3. #123
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    I would suspect too that a mom in such a situation might seem less like an xSFJ type because of not having that traditional "nuclear family" background. Regardless of what her real type is, I would guess that a mom in a "traditional family" is more likely to be typed as xSFJ, and a single mom who is working constantly to support herself and the child, dating different guys, etc might seem more like...well, like xxFP or xxTP, anyway.
    I think that supports both of our views, kind of...

    I also very much doubt that every xSFJ woman "wants" kids. How can things possibly be that simple?
    Of course not, but I never intended that. Just more likely than others, for the reasons I gave above. More inclined to traditional role, duty, and social expectation.
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  4. #124
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    I think that supports both of our views, kind of...


    Of course not, but I never intended that. Just more likely than others, for the reasons I gave above. More inclined to traditional role, duty, and social expectation.
    Yeah, I see what you mean about it supporting both our views.

    I think it leads me to contemplate whether MBTI is both nature and nurture, whereas I've always understood it was supposed to be pretty much purely nature.

    And if the circumstances/societal expectations/etc around someone have led them to act like an ESFJ and even consider themselves ESFJ...does that mean that really is what they are, or is their "real" type being "hidden" from them by environment or circumstances?
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  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    I would love to see someone volunteer their grandmother as ISTP or ENTP or something like that. I think PB said one of her grandmas is INTJ, though.

    Is there an argument that in the last few decades (like, since our moms and grandmothers) there are more T women than there used to be?

    It could make sense in some ways, but if MBTI is really nature rather than nurture, I don't think that should be the case.
    I think my grandma is ISTP?

  6. #126
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glycerine View Post
    I think my grandma is ISTP?
    That's awesome.

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  7. #127
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Fuck no, my mom is an ESTJ hardass, and my paternal grandmother is an ISTJ. I don't know about my maternal grandmother, though...she may well be ESFJ. There are a lot of them in this world.
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  8. #128
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Yeah, I see what you mean about it supporting both our views.

    I think it leads me to contemplate whether MBTI is both nature and nurture, whereas I've always understood it was supposed to be pretty much purely nature.

    And if the circumstances/societal expectations/etc around someone have led them to act like an ESFJ and even consider themselves ESFJ...does that mean that really is what they are, or is their "real" type being "hidden" from them by environment or circumstances?
    You ask some good questions.

  9. #129
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Americans in particular?

    Seriously, I know this is turning into a bit of a hangup for me...but it just seems like I've read a truly disproportionate number of descriptions of ESFJ moms (ie. when people list the types of family members, etc). Dads, brothers and sisters can be pretty much any type at all. Moms are 99% ESFJ!

    I have serious doubts about this. I mean, I'm sure there are plenty of ESFJ moms (quite a few people seem to have ISFJs too) but...I just can't believe there are that many. Other types of women reproduce. What also seems noteworthy is that a majority of people who talk about their relationship with their "ESFJ mom" will describe her as annoying, interfering, etc. Almost as though if you have a mom you don't get along with, she has to be ESFJ.

    It just seems very much like a variant on the "all annoying/domineering bosses, dads and just people are ESTJs" trope. I think a lot of (particularly American, of a certain generation) women have been socialized to act very ESFJ - or else that's the default for "annoying mom" type. I remember reading in an Enneagram book that for women over 40, test results of 2 should be taken with a grain of salt because there will probably be a disproportionate and inaccurate number of these results. Very similar to the ESFJ thing, I think.

    Thoughts? Or am I just a crank? For the record, my mom is probably an INTJ. She is definitely IxxJ and she is almost certainly not a Feeler.
    My Mama is an INFJ.
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  10. #130
    Lungs & Lips Locked Unkindloving's Avatar
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    My Mothra is another ENFJ, but a total herb and stereotypical 'Mom' in a lot of her lectures and sentiments .
    The only people I've known with esfj moms are INFPs from this forum, unless they've just been off my radar in real life.
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