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  1. #11
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    My brother is almost certainly ISTJ and is a fantastic writer. He's quite well-known in his fields of sports and travel writing. Particularly for a sports writer, he's quite erudite. He comes up with some excellent turns of phrase. The only criticism I'd make is that occasionally he sounds like he's trying a little TOO hard to be witty/erudite/borderline cheesy. But he really is an excellent writer.

    He's also written fiction, poetry etc but I don't think those are so much his genres.
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  2. #12
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    My ESFJ mother is a harpist.

    As far as art and SJs go, I wouldn't deny that they aren't self-expressive (or anyone for that matter, regardless of type). I once read that SJs are more product-oriented than process-oriented when it comes to their art. If I'm not mistaken, SJs may also like to be at least somewhat traditional in their art.

    So yeah, I would have to say SJ wouldn't not care about art, they just do it differently than the other temperaments.
    Thinkist: not optimist nor pessimist. I am primarily competent in the enneagram.
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  3. #13
    Senior Member Habba's Avatar
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    The more I read this thread, the more I think you guys do not understand what self-expression means. One can be creative yet have little need for self-expression. I think that need for self-expression comes from the feeling that you are not being understood by your peers. Artistic self-expression is used when ordinary words and sentences fail to deliver.

    I have no such feeling, and I'm not struggling with people not understanding me. Therefore I feel I have no need for excessive self-expressing. I'm quite content with the way people see me.However, as a game developer I believe I'm rather creative.
    "The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine."
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  4. #14
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Habba View Post
    The more I read this thread, the more I think you guys do not understand what self-expression means. One can be creative yet have little need for self-expression. I think that need for self-expression comes from the feeling that you are not being understood by your peers. Artistic self-expression is used when ordinary words and sentences fail to deliver.

    I have no such feeling, and I'm not struggling with people not understanding me. Therefore I feel I have no need for excessive self-expressing. I'm quite content with the way people see me.However, as a game developer I believe I'm rather creative.
    Good point and self-expression can have many many more reasons, like discontent with society, discontent with self or feeling misunderstood. But it doesnt always has to be fueled by a negative, on the contrary. Self-expression is one of the biggest levers for Extroverted Intuition and it doesnt always needs to be art or writings, its everything from game development, over cooking to building war robots.

    I hate those SJs in my bureau who think they are intelligent because they hang out at the newest art event every weekend. I think their lifes are empty and they will never understand that I dont like to visit such art events, cause what my mind seeks is not art, cause art and chaos I have every waking second.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  5. #15
    Senior Member Winds of Thor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    The stereotype about SJs is that they don't care all that much about art, or individuality, or self-expression. If my life and perspective is any indication, then this stereotype is total BS.
    I have something to add if I could, as I'm not an SJ. You're not alone feeling categorized. I think you're most definitely right that stereotypes aren't necessarily true. MBTI typically doesn't list my type gifted at the fine arts..although I have been given a gift of drawing. I don't do it often and am not a professional artist, although a historical organization asked a few months ago if I would draw for them a couple pictures of a Civil War-era structure that has lasted since like 1840. It was an honor and I enjoyed doing them .

    People appreciate and really need each others gifts. Thanks.
    Last edited by Winds of Thor; 03-10-2012 at 04:40 PM. Reason: typo
    "..And the eight and final rule: If this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight."
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  6. #16
    Senior Member Owfin's Avatar
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    I don't really get "art as expressing yourself". I love the aesthetic beauty of art. I feel like I have a strong sense of that. It moves me. My art is created from a love of composition and not from my "inner soul" or whatever. This, for example, is something I made that I consider a kind of art:



    I don't make music (might try it out!), but I love music for the sounds. I love poetry for the "texture" of words. I count great books as a kind of art too. Video games must balance form and function, and the best video games are magnificent in the twin pairing of those two. Great product design is beautiful. If you have not noticed, I care about art and not the person behind it.
    I don't see any invisible treasure chests.

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  7. #17
    Member DisneyFanGirl's Avatar
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    My dad is an ISTJ and I was confused about him being an SJ because he's so creative. He enjoys writing and has a natural talent for anything musical. He also loves comic books, which are pretty much art and literature all rolled into one. Ironically, being an ENFP, my dad is the one who initially gave me my creative streak.

    On the other hand, my mom is an ISFJ and she's not creative at all. Not one bit. It's very difficult living with someone as dry and factual as she is while I'm dripping with creativity. She has learned how to look at and appreciate good art (I took her to Wicked last September and she LOVED it).My ESFJ brother enjoys drawing and he's quite good at it. I think it depends on the person.

  8. #18
    Sweet Ocean Cloud SD45T-2's Avatar
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    I'd say Taylor Swift is the most obvious example of an SJ (ISFJ would be my guess) who's big on artistic self-expression. She doesn't write groundbreaking music with complex lyrics, but that obviously hasn't been an impediment to her success.

    Quote Originally Posted by Owfin View Post
    I don't really get "art as expressing yourself". I love the aesthetic beauty of art. I feel like I have a strong sense of that. It moves me. My art is created from a love of composition and not from my "inner soul" or whatever. This, for example, is something I made that I consider a kind of art:

    I think that would fall under concrete poetry. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concrete_poetry

    I first encountered concrete poetry when I read Age and Guile Beat Youth, Innocence, and a Bad Haircut by P. J. O'Rourke.

    I don't make music (might try it out!), but I love music for the sounds. I love poetry for the "texture" of words. I count great books as a kind of art too. Video games must balance form and function, and the best video games are magnificent in the twin pairing of those two. Great product design is beautiful. If you have not noticed, I care about art and not the person behind it.
    I'm an avid railfan, and I could talk for a long time about paint schemes and logos. I was pretty excited when Kansas City Southern decided to do a modern version of the classic Southern Belle scheme. I think I could make it even better with a few tweaks, but as is it's still a huge improvement.
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  9. #19
    Member Alehand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Habba View Post
    The more I read this thread, the more I think you guys do not understand what self-expression means. One can be creative yet have little need for self-expression. I think that need for self-expression comes from the feeling that you are not being understood by your peers. Artistic self-expression is used when ordinary words and sentences fail to deliver.

    I have no such feeling, and I'm not struggling with people not understanding me. Therefore I feel I have no need for excessive self-expressing. I'm quite content with the way people see me.However, as a game developer I believe I'm rather creative.
    I write poetry and fiction but not for self-expression, more to use it to clear my mind and make space.

    I like to think that my opinions on things, my passion for my sports teams and how I play sport, is sufficient exposure to people. If they want more they can ask.
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  10. #20
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Habba View Post
    I think that need for self-expression comes from the feeling that you are not being understood by your peers. Artistic self-expression is used when ordinary words and sentences fail to deliver.
    I think you're correct in many cases, but in other situations, it's slightly different. For example, let's say you move into an apartment with standard, boring furniture and no decoration. Perhaps your first instinct would be to make it yours -- to put up art that represents your interests, to paint the walls a better color, to put a book you like on the coffee table. Or if your Ne was going particularly crazy (as mine sometimes does), you could make your own coffee table as a craft project, perhaps decoupaging a map of the city/state you're from onto the top of the table.

    Depending on your personality, there could be an element of communication in there, too, i.e. to say through your home decor or the clothes you wear, "This is who I am", instead of simply letting your words say that for you. People judge others based on factors besides your direct verbal communication, and that includes the more abstract ways in which you express yourself. For example, your words could say "I don't like football" and your dorm room could say "I love football" (i.e. if you have posters and memorabilia everywhere) -- which would mean that your environment did not match who you are, and, if you were me, you would feel like a stranger in your home, or like it wasn't your home at all.
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