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  1. #31
    Senior Member bcubchgo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Stuff
    1 - You may see it as a huge leap, but there are plenty of N's that view your "types" version of the world as obstinate. In terms of generalities, I don't see a lot of pure creativity emerging from STJ's. It's just not their strength. That's all I will say about this for the moment.

    2- XSTJ: "I'm right until proven wrong". Most N's don't operate this way - especially people with a high "N" quotient. They are way too aware of the "inconsistencies" of this kind of thought, and are always second guessing themselves because they come across new data. Which is why we always try to make an "educated" guess about things that are uncertain instead of rely on proven techniques. I'm not saying you can understand anyone else. Everything involves uncertainty, but uncertainty is something an STJ does not like, which is why they attempt to apply binary thinking to life. If you are an ESTJ that does not behaves this way, then you are an unusual ESTJ. More often than not your type behaves this way. To answer your question: things "get done" in an "N" world by attempting to find a "gray zone" that is optimized. The decisions that are made are open-ended conclusions, even for an ENTJ - which is why an ENTJ is good at creating order out of chaos, while an ESTJ is good at using established techniques to create stability.
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  2. #32
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bcubchgo View Post
    1 - You may see it as a huge leap, but there are plenty of N's that view your "types" version of the world as obstinate. In terms of generalities, I don't see a lot of pure creativity emerging from STJ's. It's just not their strength. That's all I will say about this for the moment.

    2- XSTJ: "I'm right until proven wrong". Most N's don't operate this way - especially people with a high "N" quotient. They are way too aware of the "inconsistencies" of this kind of thought, and are always second guessing themselves because they come across new data. Which is why we always try to make an "educated" guess about things that are uncertain instead of rely on proven techniques. I'm not saying you can understand anyone else. Everything involves uncertainty, but uncertainty is something an STJ does not like, which is why they attempt to apply binary thinking to life. If you are an ESTJ that does not behaves this way, then you are an unusual ESTJ. More often than not your type behaves this way. To answer your question: things "get done" in an "N" world by attempting to find a "gray zone" that is optimized. The decisions that are made are open-ended conclusions, even for an ENTJ - which is why an ENTJ is good at creating order out of chaos, while an ESTJ is good at using established techniques to create stability.
    I don't disagree here with what you're saying here, but I think it's possible for an STJ to not subscribe to absolutes. Maybe it comes across that way, maybe it's explained that way because of poor word choice, but STJs are as good as their Si. If they don't have a depth of experiences to draw from, they are likely to subscribe to the black/white way of thinking. Otherwise, while they have a strong connection to their 'way', they are willing to consider, even try others' way and generally let them do 'them'. At least this is how I see it, as my Si has taught me that there are thousands of way to approach life, and am generally open to other approaches, as long as it's not encroaching on my values (Fi).

  3. #33
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bcubchgo View Post
    1 - You may see it as a huge leap, but there are plenty of N's that view your "types" version of the world as obstinate. In terms of generalities, I don't see a lot of pure creativity emerging from STJ's. It's just not their strength. That's all I will say about this for the moment.
    Ah, that trap -- "My blanket statement is excusable because lots of people agree with it". I would argue that in a lot of ways, Ni types are much more obstinate than SJs. I got into a long conversation with several INFJs about how they were definitely more stubborn than SJs (because SJs will change their minds immediately when presented with good evidence to the contrary, whereas it takes even more than that to convince an INFJ), and they agreed with me entirely.

    I will agree with you, though, that SJ creativity isn't usually the type of creativity that is unrelated to artistic precedent. We can still be very creative people, but usually by improving established things, instead of making new ones.
    2- XSTJ: "I'm right until proven wrong". Most N's don't operate this way - especially people with a high "N" quotient.
    Every single ENFP I know operates this way, for the record, regardless of their "N quotient". INFPs, too, can be the same way -- making very strong opinionated statements only to completely reverse their seemingly cemented opinion when presented with good opposing evidence.
    Which is why we always try to make an "educated" guess about things that are uncertain instead of rely on proven techniques.
    I don't know where the "instead of" came from, here. Those things are not mutually exclusive. I would argue that they don't even link to each other that much. SJs make educated guesses every day -- they just don't usually call them that.
    To answer your question: things "get done" in an "N" world by attempting to find a "gray zone" that is optimized. The decisions that are made are open-ended conclusions, even for an ENTJ - which is why an ENTJ is good at creating order out of chaos, while an ESTJ is good at using established techniques to create stability.
    I appreciate this answer -- thank you. But I would argue that ESTJs optimize that "gray zone" in literally exactly the same way as the ENTJ, with the only difference being that the philosophical aspect is implied.

    ENTJ: There is no perfect solution, so I'll use this one, because it's better than the others.
    ESTJ: I'll use this one, because it's better than the others.

    It's almost exactly the same thing. In fact, if you ever get an ESTJ into a philosophical debate, they will agree with you that nothing is certain. They know that as well as anyone. They just don't enjoy thinking about it, like you do. That's how I see it.

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    I don't disagree here with what you're saying here, but I think it's possible for an STJ to not subscribe to absolutes. Maybe it comes across that way, maybe it's explained that way because of poor word choice, but STJs are as good as their Si. If they don't have a depth of experiences to draw from, they are likely to subscribe to the black/white way of thinking. Otherwise, while they have a strong connection to their 'way', they are willing to consider, even try others' way and generally let them do 'them'. At least this is how I see it, as my Si has taught me that there are thousands of way to approach life, and am generally open to other approaches, as long as it's not encroaching on my values (Fi).
    This is totally true.
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    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  4. #34
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Plenty of people don't see things as black and white yet still manage to get things done. Saying otherwise is shows a really extreme version of black-and-white thinking.
    Sorry about that phrasing, then.

    Firstly, operating under the presumption that things are black and white is different from actually believing it. (See the above post for more detail on that point.)

    Secondly, I was raised with an INTP dad, and when he got bogged down into the nothing-is-certain mindset, he would pretty much lose his ability to decide on solutions. In the words of teamtechnology.co.uk, he would start "finding too many flaws, and not accepting imperfect but 'good enough' solutions". That's where my comment was coming from.

    I also felt, when I was writing that post, that in order to accomplish things, you would have to act under the false presumption that things are certain -- like the idea that the solution you're choosing is better than the others. Because if you didn't think it was better, then which solution would you choose? What criteria would you choose, if no criteria were certain?

    Even people who don't see things in black and white (and this includes me, btw) agree that some things are "better" and "worse". And our opinions on better and worse can be very strong, and hard to argue about -- regardless of MBTI type.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  5. #35
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    ^^ really glad to have you here posting...really informative.
    and i know what you mean about enfps appearing to operate that way as well....it's the te. in order to move forward with action we have to stand firm behind the decision in much the same way you described...otherwise we'd just never make any decisions.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Ayrab View Post
    First off I would like to say that I am very new to this stuff, but would love to hear your opinions. I am an ENFP, my mother is an INFJ and my father is an ESTJ. My mother and I connect on so many levels and I can safely say that she is my best friend. My father on the other hand drives me nuts. Anytime we talk, just a simple conversation, we end up at each others necks with my mother breaking it up. He has an air of I am always right and everyone else is wrong, and so on. He loves to play the blame game, and anything that has gone wrong is always someone else's fault. The man is a genius and he is a clean cut guy, and I am very proud to have him as a father, but I just don’t get him. He is either seriously emotionally detached or has some deeply buried feelings somewhere. He is insensitive when he speaks to people and says it like it is. The only way to earn respect from him is to have achieved high social status in life. That is the one of the reasons I went to medical school. It seems like he has this recipe in his head for what a man should be but I am never good enough to fit it.

    What are your thoughts on this relationship, I love the man, but he makes me want to tear my own eyeballs out with a spoon. Oh, I am 21 by the way.
    (am i reviving a dead thread? i really hope not. i just NEED to comment on this behaviour)
    I teared up at this. I have an ESTJ dad and he's exactly like that, maybe even worse. He has gotten violent with me before. He literally, honest to god thinks he...well...is god. I try having a friendly debate and it turns into him screaming at me and my ESFP mom trying to break it up, only for her to get yelled at, too. I am relating to you on so many levels, even though I'm quite younger (I'm 15 going on 16). Does your dad also throw a temper tantrum when he doesn't get his way? OR when my mom isn't in the kitchen? I'm sorry, I forgot to mention my dad is also sexist, homophobic, and racist. Fan-f***ing-tastic.
    This is just coming from someone who has the same kind of father. I'd say to not hang around him too long, or else things could take the turn for the worst. And pretty quickly. I recommend short phonecalls and quick visits until he calms the crap down and looks at his life and his choices. I understand I do not know him, but we both know his type. And alhough all of us never top growing up, some just....I hate to bring the T out in me but, some of us just seriously need to step back and realize how much in the wrong we are.

    Extremely immature xSTJs are the absolute reason we cannot and will not ever have nice things that last more than a day.
    Those who pursue truth must not be arrogant. Just because it can't be proven scientifically, you must not laugh at miracles. You must not deny your eyes the beauty of this world.

  7. #37
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    @Sunshiney: I'm sorry to say that, although I know that he would be comforted by your post, the person who wrote the OP wrote it three years ago. Since then, the OP-writer has (I think?) left the forum.

    There's no way I can presume to know what it would be like to have a father like that, terrorizing the household, but it definitely sounds like a tough time. At least you'll be out of the house soon (presumably? after high school graduation?), and will be able to free yourself from close proximity to him.

    Back on the topic of ESTJ-ness, relating to your post: What you are experiencing with your father is not type-related. Your father is abusive. ESTJs are not by nature abusive. They are not more likely to be abusive than other types. Type is not relevant here. Actually, if he acts like that all the time, it would be hard to know what type he really is, because nothing in that behavior says anything except "he has issues". The sexism/racism/traditionalism/conservatism don't necessarily mean ESTJ (look at my avatar! not so traditional or conservative).
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  8. #38

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    Ah, sorry I didn't realize they aren't here. And yes, SOON. Maybe not soon enough considering I was held back entirely, and am still a freshman (thanks to bullying)

    You do make a good point with all of that. Although I have had him take it twice and he came up with ESTJ both times. I understand that certainly not all ESTJs act like he does. Just because someone shares the same MBTI, doesn't mean they act the same. Yes, he does have some serious issues. But he thinks counseling/therapy/even aerobics is BS. It's really irritating to have him badmouth something I'd like to become and have him say "self-esteem is for losers". Those exact words... Yeah well at least I'll be helping people while you sit on your fat butt and scream obscenities at the telly.

    Sorry for making it seem like I thought it was ESTJ related. I'm absolutely terrible with words, online and in real life.
    Those who pursue truth must not be arrogant. Just because it can't be proven scientifically, you must not laugh at miracles. You must not deny your eyes the beauty of this world.

  9. #39
    Member Moxiest's Avatar
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    My mom is ESTJ... scary woman. Even family doesn't cross her... ever. She'll contact every one you know and try and turn them against you. The kind of person who, if you show her a wound, gets vinegar, pours it in, then grabs a spoon and starts digging at it. I had an ESTJ friend who did something similar, thus ending our friendship. The best thing I can do is either keep my distance, and not bare even the slightest bit of my heart to them, or put on chainmail before trying to get "close" (I mean, I have a SJ for a mother... she may be mean, but she's still my mom...) I hate that it has to be this way... but, really, it just does. It's sad that it's so hard for NF's and SJ's to relate, because we are both "social cooperators" of sorts... We just have such a different way of viewing/valueing/reacting to people/situations... :/

  10. #40
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    I think I have to unsubscribe from this thread now.

    I just said a post ago: Not all ESTJs are abusive, and abusiveness is not linked to ESTJ-ness. And it's also worth saying that SJs and NFs can communicate just fine once they understand where the other is coming from. I have tons of NF friends and my mom (who I'm very close to) is an NF, and therefore we have few communication problems, since I've gotten used to then and how their minds work. SPs, on the other hand, I have a very hard time understanding, since I don't have many SP friends and I never really have.

    Don't get me wrong; your situation does suck. I am so sorry your mom is that way, and that your friend did that to you. But every time someone says something on this forum that suggests that all ESTJs are horrible people, I feel like I have to make a comment and say otherwise. This is the problem with the MBTI, is that it gives people yet another way to stereotype. I would never backstab anyone like that. I am a good person, and I would never do that. In fact, if I met those ESTJs, I would be just as frustrated as you. So, for the record, your interactions with ESTJs do not reflect a broader trend.

    Saying this to one or two people, every once and a while, is fine. But saying it to someone and then two days later having to say it to someone else -- I am so drained. So if anyone else has ESTJ horror stories to tell, I beg of you to READ THIS POST before you say anything else about it. And in the meantime, I resign from my self-imposed duty, and I unsubscribe from this thread.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

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