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  1. #11
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    Default I totally see where you're coming from

    Ugh. I have an ESTJ father, and BOY. I sometimes would like to hurl myself under a car he makes me feel so miserable.

    I am also going into a medical field because I know he wouldn't be happy if I did anything else. It's quite ridiculous.
    ESTJ father types do not see you doing anything great for your life unless it's what he thinks is best for you... which often times ISN'T. They hold everything over your head. Let you know that every little thing that they do for you is some huge monumental sacrifice. Always makes you feel guilty for having emotions.

  2. #12
    Senior Member esidebill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by please understand me View Post
    Ugh. I have an ESTJ father, and BOY. I sometimes would like to hurl myself under a car he makes me feel so miserable.

    I am also going into a medical field because I know he wouldn't be happy if I did anything else. It's quite ridiculous.
    ESTJ father types do not see you doing anything great for your life unless it's what he thinks is best for you... which often times ISN'T. They hold everything over your head. Let you know that every little thing that they do for you is some huge monumental sacrifice. Always makes you feel guilty for having emotions.
    Necro.

    Although I am sure the original poster would like your responses, you can see the thread is more than 3 years old.
    "Others should not judge what you truly are, instead you should find yourself. You may find yourself in a bowl of cereal or dreaming of the unknown, but make sure it is you who finds you." - Myself


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    Perceiving (P) 75% Judging (J) 25%

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  3. #13
    Senior Member Habba's Avatar
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    Still.. perfectly good topic, don't you think? Although I was but puzzled by OP when he said he was new to this stuff, but had been registered already for 3 years and had 600+ posts here.

    Anyways, I too have an ESTJ father.

    I think there's (once again) miscommunication of S/N. My brother (xNTJ) also has very similar issues with our dad. My brother's constantly complaining about how he's not being respected at all. He's especially hurt when dad says he's not that good with technical stuff (Oldest of brothers is an electrician by trade and works a technical manager for a large factory, while I'm a computer 'geek'), because he's academic (he tops any school he attends to). I can certainly see the same pattern there... my brother is constantly trying to impress the father while father doesn't seem to be impressed at all.

    What is funny is that my brother also says that dad doesn't appreaciate me neither, since I haven't yet graduated (been 7 years to university, and 5 years is the target). Each time we visit dad, my brother says afterwards "See, again he badmouthed you and me, for being academics.", while I didn't see anything like that.

    I think the problem is here with N's not listening what is being said, but rather try to hear what is meant to be said. We STJs do tend to say the obvious at times, or repeat mantras... but we don't do that because we'd think you didn't get that yourself... we are saying things just to make sure it's clear. Or just to state the facts on which a discussion can be build upon.

    For example, when my dad says "You should really concentrate on your studies and graduate, it's really important... without a degree you don't have much".

    my brother might here: "I don't respect you until you prove yourself."
    while I'm hearing: "Hey, I hope you'd graduate, it would make your life more secure. I believe in you."

    Anyways, I don't give much thought to what my dad says about me. Never really have. I'm introvert, and I can damn well decide what I am myself. Whatever I do, I do to make myself proud of me.
    "The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine."
    -Nikola Tesla

  4. #14
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Habba View Post
    I think the problem is here with N's not listening what is being said, but rather try to hear what is meant to be said. We STJs do tend to say the obvious at times, or repeat mantras... but we don't do that because we'd think you didn't get that yourself... we are saying things just to make sure it's clear. Or just to state the facts on which a discussion can be build upon.

    For example, when my dad says "You should really concentrate on your studies and graduate, it's really important... without a degree you don't have much".

    my brother might here: "I don't respect you until you prove yourself."
    while I'm hearing: "Hey, I hope you'd graduate, it would make your life more secure. I believe in you."
    Totally. Or: "I want what's best for you and I want you to be happy, but I worry that you won't live as happy a life without a college degree."

    You're right - I feel like my N friends/family tend to read subtext into the things that I say, when I meant for them to be interpreted exactly as I said them. We're so incredibly straightforward that it surprises me that we could ever be misinterpreted, but it makes sense that the reason for possible misunderstandings would be making ESTJ statements overly complicated.

    Also, it seems like a common misunderstanding, for people to think that an ESTJ friend/colleague/family member doesn't think highly of them, or doesn't think they're capable of doing anything. But the thing is: for the most part, ESTJs don't want to associate with people who they don't appreciate somehow. No one wants to be friends with someone with no redeeming qualities. And if you want definite proof that an ESTJ thinks you're trustworthy and capable, think of a time when that ESTJ has asked you for advice or a second opinion. That's a sure sign.
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  5. #15
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    I actually relate more to the ESTJ side of this scenario. not the "you should to xyz because you're it's what a man should do" part, but the bluntness part. my parents are both mushy, temperamental FJs (dad's INFJ, mom's ESFJ) and they take everything I say personally until they make it personal. they're always asking me how I feel and talking about how other people suffering makes them sad or how they should volunteer more or how everyone should be this big helpful FJ family. wherever we try to talk about something, all they can talk about is feelings and I'm like "I don't give a damn about your feelings, they're irrelevent to this issue, now let's solve the problem".

    the best suggestion I can give is to only talk to him about more practical matters. of course, it should be made clear clear that he is only allowed to offer SUGGESTIONs. from there, if you are frank and to the point, he shouldn't give you much trouble. it sounds like you also might need to clearly lay out some boundaries, since ETJs often need to have things like that clearly spelled out.
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  6. #16
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    as a fellow ENFP, I find ESTJs are quit easy to talk to if they're open to communicating (and most are, they just don't seem like it). lots of ESTJs don't realize that the expectations they have of people are just friggin ridiculous and way too extreme. they don't enjoy being controlling, they just don't realize they're over stepping the boundaries because most people have just beem passive aggressive with them. I've found a good way to talk to a clueless ESTJ is
    ESTJ: this needs to get done!
    ENFP: you see the problem with that is that it goes against my best interests because of X. however, you obviously have a reason for what you are doing. if you tell me what your intentions and needs are, we can work out a way to get both our needs met
    ESTJ: omg, you're right. that does have a bad effect on you when I do that. why didn't anyone tell me I was like that?
    ENFP: it's not totally your fault, you are just good at setting boundaries and being assertive about getting your own needs met.
    ESTJ: what?! you mean everyone doesn't do that?
    ENFP: frankly, lots of people are total passive aggressive bitches who blame you for things without making any attempt to communicate with you. people's brains just work differently. people like us have an easier time being assertive than lots of other people do.
    ESTJ: is that why people think I'm controlling
    ENFP: yes. in actuality, you're more "accidently controlling" by virtue of not seeing other people's boundaries. some people have probably tried to tell you indirectly, but you might have missed it because you're naturally a more direct person.
    ESTJ: you know a lot about other people, how did you learn all this
    ENFP: MBTI. it's a sort of personality test, but it measures the way that your brain works. for instance, you're an ESTJ. organized, business minded, assertive and responsible, but you naturally struggle with seeing other people's point of view and seeing how your actions affect other people. on the other hand, I'm an ENFP. I can generate ideas and make connections at lightning speed, but I struggle with simple things like routine, consistancy and focus which come second nature to you
    ESTJ: what, you mean everyone isn't good at that stuff?
    ENFP: no, your brain works in a way that makes that easier for you naturally. of course, other types are capable of it too, but often times it needs to be learned and they might do it in a different way. MBTI is basically how your brain operates so you can make the best of your natural strengths and patch up your weaknesses

    PS: this is a edited down version of a conversation I've had with 2 ESTJs. their actual words sounded more intelligent than this and the conversation was more drawn out
    ENFP: We put the Fi in Fire
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  7. #17
    Senior Member Chiharu's Avatar
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    The only way I can deal with SJs is by privately (note: in my own head only) laughing at their views and attitudes I find ridiculous, and if they get belligerent about something I disagree with, saying something like "Mhm". Not the healthiest or most mature approach, but it's the only thing that's worked for me. I don't mind xSTJs so much because they're interesting in that they're completely foreign and different from me. If I focus on that, focus on studying how their mind works, I don't get overly annoyed.
    Be soft. Do not let the world make you hard. Do not let pain make you hate. Do not let the bitterness steal your sweetness." ― Kurt Vonnegut

    ENFP. 7w6 – 4w3 – 1w9 sx/so. Aries. Dilettante. Overly anxious optimist.

  8. #18
    Senior Member bcubchgo's Avatar
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    SJ's believe they are being straightforward with their demands and they do not understand the subtle complexities of how others might misinterpret them, or the value of different options.To an N this is "missing the forest for the trees." There is no such thing as an "exact" interpretation of anything. Life is not black and white, but it seems that SJ's believe that it can and should be.
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  9. #19
    Boldly Gone Malice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    You have my sympathy.
    x2.
    My father is an ESTJ and we knock heads constantly. Very interesting thread, I'll have to review it more closely when I have the time.
    a little less conversation, a little more action please
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  10. #20
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    it is a shame about these sorts of miscommunications...like you say n's try to read into what is said but we don't try at all...we can't help but hear you that way...because we speak that way...our brain works that way. we often speak in metaphors...trying to paint the picture for you so that you might be able to interpret it as accurately as possible...like the picture will be felt as strongly as a memory...because words alone can so often be misunderstood....ha...it's an odd thing that but truly know that it's not intended...our brains our just wired differently.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
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