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Thread: Love and ISJs

  1. #1
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    Default Love and ISJs

    Hi,

    I am an ENTP sometimes edging towards ENFP. For four years I was in a relationship with an ISFJ edging towards ISTJ girlfriend who was - as u can imagine - quite a challenge for me. She would be very focussed on her schedule all the time, setting herself goals and having trouble opening herself up emotionally. Although I thought she was very cute and adoring in her ways, she would be very annoyed if I communicated that to her. Like I wasn't taking her seriously or even insulting her. If I told her I did appreciate her and had a lot of envy and respect for the way she was able to take charge of so much she would seem even more annoyed. I also felt she didn't quite appreciate or maybe show her appreciation for my part of the deal: getting her out of her shell, pushing her towards more adventurous nights out, vacations or ideas, making sweet love to her... I realise my world seemed way to chaotic for her at times but at the same time I thought hers could be pretty dull. At our best we were the full deal and got the best out of each other, in the end we both lost intrest and started living our very seperate lifestyles.

    That said, I seem to have a thing going for ISJs. They attract me because I feel a lot of complementarity and find them very refreshing in their pragmatic approach at times. They put my feet on the ground when necessary which can be a good thing for ENTPs. I've met this new girl and I'm pretty sure she's ISJ too.

    My question to you ISJs is: how do I avoid this same situation? What went wrong in your perception? Any succesful relationships with ENTPs at all?

  2. #2
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    That's unfortunate. I'm sorry things didn't work out for you two. I too get the sense that she didn't appreciate you enough. Some people want someone who is just like them, and others want someone who is opposite of them. She sounds like the former and she may not have realized that yet. I think that there are signs of when someone appreciates you and your strengths that are opposite of theirs. Instead of being annoyed with you or trying to encourage you to be more like them, they will relish in your opposite traits and may even try to evoke those opposite traits in you. It's hard to explain but what they won't do is try to change you into being more like them, look down on or criticize those traits. Your opposite traits will make them happy. When it's mutual appreciation that's when it's best, but if it only goes one way, someone's going to be left feeling bad.

    And yes I do think there can be successful ENTP/ISFJ relationships.
    (don't listen to the naysayers)

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    Senior Member Lily flower's Avatar
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    I don't think you can really expect a lot of emotional strokes from ISTJ's. It's just not really in their nature.

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    ISFJs can be a lot more demonstrative than ISTJs, so I'm not sure it's Si doms, or ISTJ in particular...and as an ISTJ female, your ex may have had an even bigger wall against your telling her she was "cute" and those kinds of thngs, because there's the dual issue of not only being an ISTJ, but being a woman who wants to be seen as an equal in a man's world. My experience of the ISTJ in my life is that he's like WHY DO YOU HAVE TO BE OMGZ KITTENS NO MOAR HEARTS but he still wants attention and admiration.

    ISTJs can give love by being fiercely loyal and consistent and stable, and by being reliable. You want someone you can call every day or depend to be there on time? I find that SJs in general are great for that, in terms of romance.

    I think sometimes it can be worse with younger people who haven't developed their other functions as much, you can clash more strongly (you don't say how old you are).

    I hope things go better for you this time, and it's best to remember you like her for what she is: an ISJ girl might not do this or that, but if you broke up with her and found an ETJ or ISP instead, they might lack some of the good or attractive qualities the ISJ had.

  5. #5
    Junior Member AscendingFlame's Avatar
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    I must put a warning before I post what I just wrote because your post *really* rubbed me the wrong way. You do remind me of my first boyfriend so maybe I'm taking this too personal. Anyway, here we go:

    Quote Originally Posted by Magritte View Post
    Although I thought she was very cute and adoring in her ways, she would be very annoyed if I communicated that to her. Like I wasn't taking her seriously or even insulting her. If I told her I did appreciate her and had a lot of envy and respect for the way she was able to take charge of so much she would seem even more annoyed.
    Maybe it was more the way you said it, not that you said it. I admit I tend to be very suspicious towards people who compliment or flatter me. Maybe she was, too? I also don't like to be called "cute", because to me it conveys that someone likes me weak and looking nice and doesn't take me all that serious. Also, if people tell me, they envy me, I get afraid that their envy turns into something very negative.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magritte View Post
    I also felt she didn't quite appreciate or maybe show her appreciation for my part of the deal: getting her out of her shell, pushing her towards more adventurous nights out, vacations or ideas, making sweet love to her...
    That would be the part where I'd say, no wonder you didn't get along. In this bit you infer that she is inferior to you and is a fool not to learn from you. Woah! Full of yourself much???

    I usually get away as fast as I can from people who tell me to be more outgoing (hello, I'm an introvert, which means, being outgoing is a hell of a strain for me and NOT something enjoyable, as it would be for an extrovert), or take more risk (I really like safety, I do not enjoy risks, I do not feel any thrill or excitement about risks, so don't force me to take any, I will if I find it is really necessary and when I feel it will benefit me, not because someone else wants it from me or thinks it would be more exciting).

    They way your wrote that whole passage sounds extremely condescending. ("... making sweet love to her..." - *shudders at that phrase*)

    I realise my world seemed way to chaotic for her at times but at the same time I thought hers could be pretty dull.
    I've had friends and boyfriends who thought my world was pretty dull. I didn't have them long. Even if they wouldn't say it I would notice. It's not a nice thing to notice someone you care about finds you and the things you love dull.

    At our best we were the full deal and got the best out of each other, in the end we both lost intrest and started living our very seperate lifestyles.
    I'm surprise it lasted as long as it did.

    That said, I seem to have a thing going for ISJs. They attract me because I feel a lot of complementarity and find them very refreshing in their pragmatic approach at times. They put my feet on the ground when necessary which can be a good thing for ENTPs. I've met this new girl and I'm pretty sure she's ISJ too.
    This sounds as if you only liked them because they do something for you. Not because you want to do something for them. But wait, you do. And as I see it, that is just the problem. You remind me of a former friend of mine who always gave me the most horrible birthday presents. Well, actually, she gave me great, expensive presents. Presents *she* would have loved. But never anything *I* would have loved. She couldn't even imagine that anyone could NOT love the things she thought were so fantastic. As you seem to have a really hard time to understand that some people prefer to remain in their shell with just their loved one(s), that some enjoy security and stability and that chaos and risks are not something that they want to experience and certainly not something they can enjoy. You seem to more have wanted to be her mentor than her companion, something I wouldn't react well to.

    So my advice would be to re-examine your reasons why you want to be with an ISxJ. Is it to convert them to your ways, or to make them "better people", or just because you are in love and really WANT your relationship with that girl to work out, accepting her as she is and not trying to change her.

  6. #6
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    Whew wee it's chilly in here, who turned down the a/c?

    Quote Originally Posted by AscendingFlame View Post
    They way your wrote that whole passage sounds extremely condescending. ("... making sweet love to her..." - *shudders at that phrase*)
    lolz, that's funny. I guess frustrations reached an all time high.

    Quote Originally Posted by AscendingFlame View Post
    I've had friends and boyfriends who thought my world was pretty dull. I didn't have them long. Even if they wouldn't say it I would notice. It's not a nice thing to notice someone you care about finds you and the things you love dull.
    So don't notice. Let it roll off. Prove them wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by AscendingFlame View Post
    This sounds as if you only liked them because they do something for you. Not because you want to do something for them. But wait, you do. And as I see it, that is just the problem. You remind me of a former friend of mine who always gave me the most horrible birthday presents. Well, actually, she gave me great, expensive presents. Presents *she* would have loved.
    Dang.

    Quote Originally Posted by AscendingFlame View Post
    So my advice would be to re-examine your reasons why you want to be with an ISxJ. Is it to convert them to your ways, or to make them "better people", or just because you are in love and really WANT your relationship with that girl to work out, accepting her as she is and not trying to change her.
    By the same token, let's apply that logic right back at ya. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're having a little trouble accepting @Magritte here?

    Life is a learning, growing process. Accepting constructive criticism and making tweaks is part of what makes relationships work; along with open communication. People aren't mind readers. I'm not. Are you? If there's something specific that makes you happy in a relationship, you've got to speak up. This cynical attitude isn't working for ya and it's not going to get you very far in life.

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    Junior Member AscendingFlame's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    By the same token, let's apply that logic right back at ya. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're having a little trouble accepting @Magritte here?
    Yes, but then, I really don't have to.
    And *he* asked for our opinion. So he can't just except to get ego strokes.

    Accepting constructive criticism and making tweaks is part of what makes relationships work; along with open communication. People aren't mind readers. I'm not. Are you? If there's something specific that makes you happy in a relationship, you've got to speak up.
    I absolutely agree. I do have that relationship with my partner, where we can talk to each other openly and honestly. But then I also don't tell him he's dull and that he should be grateful that he found me because I will help him overcome all his character deficiencies. Neither does he treat me that way. We treat each other with respect, support and caring. We also leave each other space and don't assume we know what's best for the other person.

    This cynical attitude isn't working for ya and it's not going to get you very far in life.
    The bit you quoted wasn't meant in a cynical way at all. It was meant as honest advice. *shrugs*

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    I don't think AscendingFlame seems cynical. It's probably good that she offered her perspective, and I honestly can also see what she means about him being condescending ...this is something he should probably work on if he wants to get along with an Si dom and respect them for who they are instead of insisting they change...and yeah that "making sweet love" thing made me shudder too.

  9. #9
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magritte View Post
    My question to you ISJs is: how do I avoid this same situation? What went wrong in your perception?
    You are/were open to learning things from her because it was your idea first, but if you want her to learn from you it has to be her idea first, not something for you to push on her when she isn't open to it. Maybe in time your world will start looking more enticing to her. Otherwise you have to accept her how she is. At least that's my opinion of how it works best.

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    Senior Member bcubchgo's Avatar
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    the key in this situation is your own perception. ISTJ's are not going to be flexible for you so if your own emotions are being run over by what you perceive as their "uncaring attitude" then you will continue to have problems. Do not attempt to believe that they are capable of expressing feelings or responding empathically. If you do you are setting yourself up for failure. The posts from ascendingflame are your first clue here. Most of them are exactly like that and will incorrectly read between the lines and frustrate you. The shades of subtlety that you are looking for do not exist in their world. The only way around this is to change your perception of the situation and wait for them to come out of their shells for you. You might be waiting for a long time though so go find a good book or something in the meantime.

    Edit: also you are experiencing a paradoxical phenomenon whereby your own need for emotional reassurance is being perceived as "unstable" which is going to drive them away in horror. Trying to corner them makes them feel weak and not in control which is their least favorite thing.
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