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  1. #1
    Senior Member redcheerio's Avatar
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    Default ESFJ - Possible for an ENTP to win over?

    OK, so in general, I get along with everyone I come across. Almost.

    However, I somehow have managed to really piss off a few ESFJs I've worked with in the past. Like to an extreme. In particular, two ESFJs, one at my last job, and one at the one before. I'm not sure what I did, but they both really seemed to hate my guts, to the point of trying over a long period of time to get me fired.

    So in case it ever happens again, is there anything I can do to win over an annoyed/ pissed off ESFJ? The problem happened early on in both cases, and I could tell there was a problem, but didn't know what to do about it. Or even better, is there anything I should avoid doing to prevent the problem from happening in the first place?

    Please don't make this a thread to trash ESFJs, I just want advice from ESFJs, other SJs who might have insight, or other NPs/NTs who have had similar workplace type-interaction issues and figured out how to resolve it.

    Help?

  2. #2
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    the ones i know are are super sweet and always go way out of their way to help people and all they want is for you to appreciate it and acknowledge that they're being helpful...so my best advice is to do what you can to make them feel appreciated and valued.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  3. #3
    Senior Member redcheerio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    the ones i know are are super sweet and always go way out of their way to help people and all they want is for you to appreciate it and acknowledge that they're being helpful...so my best advice is to do what you can to make them feel appreciated and valued.
    Hm, I've seen this mentioned in other threads, too, so is probably something I haven't given enough attention to. And I can relate to not feeling appreciated enough, so is something to think about and pay attention to from now on.

    Thanks!

  4. #4
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Firstly, Redcheerio, I love your mature tone and it's nice that you made this a thread asking to learn how to understand and get along with the ESFJs.

    You might find this thread helpful in some way. It just came to mind.

    You seem like a reasonable and nice person to me. Do you have any idea whatsoever what might have pissed them off?

  5. #5
    Senior Member redcheerio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    Firstly, Redcheerio, I love your mature tone and it's nice that you made this a thread asking to learn how to understand and get along with the ESFJs.

    You might find this thread helpful in some way. It just came to mind.

    You seem like a reasonable and nice person to me. Do you have any idea whatsoever what might have pissed them off?
    Thanks, Giggly! Thanks also for the link, and for being reasonable and nice about it yourself.



    Wow, amazingdatagirl's situation is SO similar to mine!! I related to LotsOfHeart, too. Someone in that thread also mentioned the fact that because there are more ESFJs in the world, you're going to run into more ESFJ assholes, too. Not because there is a higher proportion of assholes of that type, but because there are more of them, period. (Gawd knows there are some asshole ENTPs out there, too.) I have also known some cool ESFJs, it's just that ESFJ happens to be the type I've had problems with in their unhealthy incarnations.

    When I think back about the most recent situation, I think I pissed him off by showing off a bit. For example, when he gave me a math puzzle, I solved it in about 30 seconds, then smiled like this and asked him to give me a "real" math puzzle. I was just joking around and deliberately being a brat to be funny, but I think it pissed him off because it took him a lot longer to solve it.

    There were also other times when people came up to both of us to ask engineering questions, and I answered them quickly. I thought it would be OK for me to answer instead of waiting for him, since I had the relevant technical expertise and he didn't, but I think that pissed him off because he was worried it made him look stupid. I didn't realize at the time that he was insecure about his intelligence, especially since he is a manager in his late fifties, and had authority over me. I always thought older people didn't have these issues anymore. I had assumed that he was pretty smart, since I had previously worked with and gotten along with his son, who was very smart, and I had told him I thought his son was really smart.

    I think ANOTHER problem was that I kept submitting my timesheets late when I was super busy with work, and I think he took it personally because that was the only part of my work that he really had authority over me with. He took a lot of weird things personally that took me by surprise, but at least now I'm more aware of how it happens.



    With the work situation before that and the other ESFJ I referred to, I remember she seemed annoyed from the very first time we met. When the boss introduced us, she seemed disappointed that I was starting there. In that case, it was a really small company, she was pretty new herself, and was the only female engineer until I came along. So I might have been encroaching on her new territory. (That was foreign to me, because I'm used to female engineers being excited and happy to come across other female engineers, like I usually am, since we're not very common.)

    Not only that, but I also remember her looking really angry when I played devil's advocate once when she was telling a story about how some guy had been so horrible to her, and I explained that he was just being logical. At that point, I didn't understand that with some people, it's a REALLY BAD IDEA to use logic to contradict someone when they are looking for emotional validation. I understand that better now.



    But aside from a few gaffs like that, I sensed in both situations that they were annoyed with me, and continuously tried to be friendly to them. I alternated between trying to be friendly, and giving up and ignoring them. I also had interpreted their need to feel appreciated as a need to be worshipped and sucked up to, and had decided that kissing ass wasn't something I would do.

    However, looking at it from a different angle, I think I can try expressing more thanks and appreciation when appropriate. I can also try talking to them from the very beginning if I sense it happening again with anyone else in the future, and be cautious of the things I learned from those 2 ESFJs. So, I think I'm a bit better equipped now to prevent this from happening in the future, but I'm still a bit worried.

    I would also be interested in advice for the best way to talk to someone like this if I notice it happening again in the future.

    It seems pretty common for NTPs to accidentally offend people or piss them off, so in case I do it again, I'd like to know how to win over an annoyed ESFJ.

  6. #6
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redcheerio View Post
    Thanks, Giggly! Thanks also for the link, and for being reasonable and nice about it yourself.

    Although I'm not an ESFJ, it's my pleasure.

    When I think back about the most recent situation, I think I pissed him off by showing off a bit. For example, when he gave me a math puzzle, I solved it in about 30 seconds, then smiled like this and asked him to give me a "real" math puzzle. I was just joking around and deliberately being a brat to be funny, but I think it pissed him off because it took him a lot longer to solve it.
    I don't think you did anything wrong here, except maybe rubbing it afterwards (not that his shortcomings are your problem).

    There were also other times when people came up to both of us to ask engineering questions, and I answered them quickly. I thought it would be OK for me to answer instead of waiting for him, since I had the relevant technical expertise and he didn't, but I think that pissed him off because he was worried it made him look stupid. I didn't realize at the time that he was insecure about his intelligence, especially since he is a manager in his late fifties, and had authority over me. I always thought older people didn't have these issues anymore. I had assumed that he was pretty smart, since I had previously worked with and gotten along with his son, who was very smart, and I had told him I thought his son was really smart.
    He could be going through some stage of fearing being replaced by a younger and quicker person. Older people get that way. Still, not your problem. It's his. If this is the case, you wouldn't be wrong not to play along with him. If you're feeling gracious, I guess you could defer such outdoings. It's your choice though.

    I think ANOTHER problem was that I kept submitting my timesheets late when I was super busy with work, and I think he took it personally because that was the only part of my work that he really had authority over me with. He took a lot of weird things personally that took me by surprise, but at least now I'm more aware of how it happens.
    My most recent boss was ESFJ. I loved her to death and she acted anal about small matters like this often. I never took it personally or like she was out to get me. Instead I saw it as a learning opportunity for me. There was a reason why she was the boss (she's proven herself overtime and his good at what she does) so I saw my time there as a way to learn everything I could from her and with small details like that, I felt like it could only make me better as a worker.

    With the work situation before that and the other ESFJ I referred to, I remember she seemed annoyed from the very first time we met. When the boss introduced us, she seemed disappointed that I was starting there. In that case, it was a really small company, she was pretty new herself, and was the only female engineer until I came along. So I might have been encroaching on her new territory. (That was foreign to me, because I'm used to female engineers being excited and happy to come across other female engineers, like I usually am, since we're not very common.)
    No idea what this is about. People are weird.

    Not only that, but I also remember her looking really angry when I played devil's advocate once when she was telling a story about how some guy had been so horrible to her, and I explained that he was just being logical. At that point, I didn't understand that with some people, it's a REALLY BAD IDEA to use logic to contradict someone when they are looking for emotional validation. I understand that better now.
    lol,yeah that's probably a bad idea if you don't know her really well and she's asked for that kind of advice.

    But aside from a few gaffs like that, I sensed in both situations that they were annoyed with me, and continuously tried to be friendly to them. I alternated between trying to be friendly, and giving up and ignoring them. I also had interpreted their need to feel appreciated as a need to be worshipped and sucked up to, and had decided that kissing ass wasn't something I would do.
    How do you want to act towards them naturally? What is the culture like at your job? Is everyone buddy-buddy, or can you get away with staying to yourself without consequence?

    However, looking at it from a different angle, I think I can try expressing more thanks and appreciation when appropriate. I can also try talking to them from the very beginning if I sense it happening again with anyone else in the future, and be cautious of the things I learned from those 2 ESFJs. So, I think I'm a bit better equipped now to prevent this from happening in the future, but I'm still a bit worried.
    Expressing thanks and appreciation when appropriate sounds really good.

    I would also be interested in advice for the best way to talk to someone like this if I notice it happening again in the future.
    If they're not really saying what they are pissed off about, then it could mean that you're tapping into their insecurities which are hard for people to talk about. I don't really know what advice to give you here. If it were me, I'd probably just try to avoid doing those things again that irritated them in the first place and look for an open comfortable door in future conversation to bring it up and try to gain some insight (which may never come).

    It seems pretty common for NTPs to accidentally offend people or piss them off, so in case I do it again, I'd like to know how to win over an annoyed ESFJ.
    Invite them to lunch many times and talk to them like normal so they can see how personable you really are.

  7. #7
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    i wonder if fe being your tertiary function is why it bothers you so much as a dom function in others...it seems to in me a bit with te

    but to comment on your above post...yeah it seems you offended their fe. you weren't being polite (obvious to me you were joking) but i don't think that matters to them. it was impolite in their eyes. you were not acknowledging their feelings or the showing them the respect they felt they deserved.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  8. #8
    Blind Guardian Haven's Avatar
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    My best friend over the last 10 years is ENTP and he really annoyed me when I first met him, so yes it is certainly possible.

    However, at work there's this other ENTP that posted crap on my facebook when I accidentally left myself logged in, so the cycle continues.
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  9. #9
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    I have a problem with some ESFJs myself. And I'm ISTJ!

    I think those who seem to come at me with Fe...barrage of questions that they are asking as making a connection, but they don't take the discussion any further.

    There's an ESFJ at work who is real buddy buddy with the ENTP on the team....they get along well, but the ESFJ becomes the butt of his jokes.

  10. #10
    Senior Member redcheerio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    Although I'm not an ESFJ, it's my pleasure.
    Thanks. I kind of see INTPs as being like introverted twins to ENTPs, since we have the same functions but in a different order. So while we relate to people differently, we think similarly. So I figured that it might be similar with ISFJs and ESFJs? That although you interact differently with people, you might understand how they think or where they're coming from? (BTW, I've never met an ISFJ I didn't get along with.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    I don't think you did anything wrong here, except maybe rubbing it afterwards (not that his shortcomings are your problem).

    He could be going through some stage of fearing being replaced by a younger and quicker person. Older people get that way. Still, not your problem. It's his. If this is the case, you wouldn't be wrong not to play along with him. If you're feeling gracious, I guess you could defer such outdoings. It's your choice though.

    My most recent boss was ESFJ. I loved her to death and she acted anal about small matters like this often. I never took it personally or like she was out to get me. Instead I saw it as a learning opportunity for me. There was a reason why she was the boss (she's proven herself overtime and his good at what she does) so I saw my time there as a way to learn everything I could from her and with small details like that, I felt like it could only make me better as a worker.
    It's true, and I think his point was valid, even if I think he overreacted. I didn't take it as seriously as I should have, and didn't realize how vehemently he would react to my not taking it seriously. I've learned my lesson from the experience, though. I've also learned my lesson to be more careful not to make other people feel stupid.


    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    No idea what this is about. People are weird.

    lol,yeah that's probably a bad idea if you don't know her really well and she's asked for that kind of advice.

    How do you want to act towards them naturally? What is the culture like at your job? Is everyone buddy-buddy, or can you get away with staying to yourself without consequence?
    I've found that for me, staying away from them only made things worse. I think introverts might be able to get away from it, but since I tend to be pretty sociable with most people, it probably stands out when I'm not sociable with anyone else who is sociable, if that makes sense.


    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    Expressing thanks and appreciation when appropriate sounds really good.

    If they're not really saying what they are pissed off about, then it could mean that you're tapping into their insecurities which are hard for people to talk about. I don't really know what advice to give you here. If it were me, I'd probably just try to avoid doing those things again that irritated them in the first place and look for an open comfortable door in future conversation to bring it up and try to gain some insight (which may never come).

    Invite them to lunch many times and talk to them like normal so they can see how personable you really are.
    Hm, that makes sense, thanks. Funny you should mention going to lunch a lot, because she used to invite me to lunch sometimes, and I never opened up to her because I didn't trust her. She used to complain about other coworkers when they weren't around, and use things they'd confided in her against them with the boss. Now I'm wondering if she was sincerely trying to make an effort, and I made things worse by keeping quiet. I always had the impression she was trying to set traps for me, since she often said things to the boss to get him pissed off at others in the office. Hm, I'm still not sure whether I was being smart or paranoid.

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