[MBTI General] ESFJ - Possible for an ENTP to win over?

[Giggly]

^I seeee. well, that helps me a little bit in understanding ENTPs.

 

[IZthe411]

The 'nice' esfj just came over, and for the third time today asked me 'what's wrong'. I told him and another guy (ISTP) that I'm feeling kinda so-so today. Not bad, just not 'on' with the silliness and jokes. So he just gets back from lunch and comes over and asks me again. It's annoying. I had to tell him that nothing's wrong, I'm just not in a talkative mood. I think I hurt him some. Not sure. I feel bad but not to the point of saying sorry. I think he has to learn to chill sometimes.

 

[digesthisickness]

The 'nice' esfj just came over, and for the third time today asked me 'what's wrong'. I told him and another guy (ISTP) that I'm feeling kinda so-so today. Not bad, just not 'on' with the silliness and jokes. So he just gets back from lunch and comes over and asks me again. It's annoying. I had to tell him that nothing's wrong, I'm just not in a talkative mood. I think I hurt him some. Not sure. I feel bad but not to the point of saying sorry. I think he has to learn to chill sometimes.

wow. i've been there so many times. you just don't feel like 'entertaining' others with that outer show. you've reached the point that inevitably always occurs where introspection has to have its way with your brain. the difference in the two can look like you've suddenly got a problem though and it's practically always misinterpreted that way.

in order to be left alone, i've been driven to lie about it to those who refuse to believe what's really going on. "it's personal and private; it'll go away soon, but for now i just don't feel like talking to anyone." sadly, sometimes, one has to lie in order to be believed.

 

[IZthe411]

wow. i've been there so many times. you just don't feel like 'entertaining' others with that outer show. you've reached the point that inevitably always occurs where introspection has to have its way with your brain. the difference in the two can look like you've suddenly got a problem though and it's practically always misinterpreted that way.

in order to be left alone, i've been driven to lie about it to those who refuse to believe what's really going on. "it's personal and private; it'll go away soon, but for now i just don't feel like talking to anyone." sadly, sometimes, one has to lie in order to be believed.

As I was driving into work today I realized that it was one of those days. I don't feel like I need to justify it. And I don't want to lie....so when he hits me with the dumb questions (sorry I have to call it like I see it), I just take a minute to gather myself and calmly say 'I'm fine'.

It's not so much that he's asking what's wrong. ISTP, ENFJ, and ENTP have all come over and have done the same thing, but their approaches are different. To ask 'what's wrong' implies what you mentioned- a problem. To make it witty, or joking, or just plain ridiculous, like the ENFJ LOL, prompts me to at least engage them, and once they get their answer- they move on.

 

[Lady_X]

Interesting! I've heard that before and I'll bet there's something to it, although I don't understand it. Do you?

i have no idea no...i asked my infp bf if si bothered him and he said no not at all but te does him too...so my theory might be shit haha

 

[Lady_X]

i feel ya, redcheerio. i accidentally piss people off a lot by being flippant about things that others take seriously without realizing until it's too late that i've done so. hanging around with others that get me for a good amount of time can cause me to be a bit too comfortable with being myself and that causes problems when i again get around others who don't know me as well. i forget how truly badly i can come off if not careful, but we do learn and we do want to learn and that combination, more often than not, wins out in the end. great for us; great for them.

sadly, a lot of our kind of kidding around comes in the form of faux cockiness. i mean, sure, we can be cocky, but unlike those who truly are full of themselves, we're actually aware that we're being full of crap when we do it. hell, even when we're really feeling cocky, we're aware of how much more we have to learn. however, those who don't know that, only see the surface BS, and believe we really think we're as great as we're joking we are.

the way i usually 'fix' these situations, is to go to them for help. not only does it show that we value something they can contribute, but it also gives them the chance to realize that perhaps they'd judged the situation wrong and opens them up to giving us another chance. asking for advice (about anything) one or two more times after that, mixed in with being yourself, but making it more obvious that you know you're full of crap when acting that way allows them to see you more clearly.

hope this helps.

ha enfps do this too and i feel like not everyone gets it either and i almost always assume others are joking when they act that way too so am very rarely offended by it.

 

[Giggly]

As I was driving into work today I realized that it was one of those days. I don't feel like I need to justify it. And I don't want to lie....so when he hits me with the dumb questions (sorry I have to call it like I see it), I just take a minute to gather myself and calmly say 'I'm fine'.

It's not so much that he's asking what's wrong. ISTP, ENFJ, and ENTP have all come over and have done the same thing, but their approaches are different. To ask 'what's wrong' implies what you mentioned- a problem. To make it witty, or joking, or just plain ridiculous, like the ENFJ LOL, prompts me to at least engage them, and once they get their answer- they move on.

ha enfps do this too and i feel like not everyone gets it either and i almost always assume others are joking when they act that way too so am very rarely offended by it.

Also helpful to know, thank you!

 

[Tamske]

Answering the title question: my mother-in-law and father-in-law are an ESFJ-ENTP couple, so yes, it's possible...

 

[redcheerio]

This ESFJ I work with- "Fat Bastard" did that to me. I said something in a meeting between us- basically how I did not agree with the boss' approach to our work. We were in his office during our 1200th remediation, and he spun what I said as if I trashed the boss, and he's this loyalist. It pissed me off to no end.

Mind you, I work with 2 of them, one of them, the younger one who I was talking about attacking me with his good intentioned Fe, is actually a nice guy who wants to everyone around him to be happy. The one above is older, thinks he's the cat's meow, and wears tight polos. TMI with the exposed belly action we get sometimes.

omg

Yeah, I know one ESFJ who is pretty awesome, and there was another one at the same company who was pretty nice.

As for using things people said against them and twisting it, I wonder if they actually believe in their head that it's justified? Like if disagreeing with someone logically, especially a higher-up, is seen as some kind of terrible disloyalty that should be exposed and punished?

The 2 nightmares that I worked with seemed to feel perfectly justified in their behavior, not only justified but self-satisfied by it, behavior that to me seemed so sneaky and manipulative and nasty as to be nearly sociopathic at times. So I'm wondering if that kind of thought pattern is what allows them to look in the mirror every day and be happy with themselves?

Yes. I find this is a J tendency, probably more IxxJ, to make instant judgements about people and situations. Especially with Si users, we immediately associate what's in front of us with what's happened before, and prepare ourselves for a similar experience.

Ah, OK. So what proportion of the time do you change your mind from a negative first impression to liking them? And what is it that changes your mind?

Definitely not the case here. I think our ISTJ boss everytime Fat ESFJ leaves his office.

After reading some of the descriptions they have of us, I say the same thing about myself. But if I go by functions, I'm definitely Si/Te. I have good Ne, and lately have become more aware of my Fi moments. I'm pretty balanced.

Huh, cool. What do you come out as if you go by the simpler tests for E vs I, N vs S, T vs F, and P vs J? Same thing, or different?

Yes! I think it's because the answers to the questions are sometimes so obvious that it's a waste of breath to ask them, so you must be using that as a springboard to something else. I'll wait for the connector, but nothing happens..............

And the one guy who's nice, it's like he jumps on me with questions, (like he's doing right now), and if I don't answer right away, he asks more questions. I call that the Fe attack.

It sounds like they're trying to start a convo, but aren't sure what to say next, and are hoping you'll be the one to come up with the "connector". Even though I often hate small talk, I'll sometimes initiate it to be friendly, but can't really think of any "connectors" at that moment to make it more interesting. I'm happy to leave it at that if they're not in the mood, though, since I do the same thing sometimes when others start convos with me.

I just hate being told how I 'should' do anything, especially when they say I was as 'wrong' or 'mean', especially when I'm joking.

Yeah, it's a bummer when you can't joke around with people, or they don't get any of your humor.

He does.

Cool, that's good.

 

[redcheerio]

I don't start off disliking people, I start off liking everyone, probably too much so... and sometimes I'll be so shocked to find out that they dislike me. I really don't think it's due to any type differences. I think, initially, some people are just more guarded emotionally and others are not so guarded, and then there is a persons natural moods that factor into this (i.e. are they naturally grumpy or naturally happy person?)

That's true. I also tend to start off liking most people, and am also shocked if they don't like me.
(Thanks for giving me a good reason to use my fav smiley )

*bows to you*
TBH, I don't like answering ESFJ questions but there are so few of them here that I don't want to leave people hanging who genuinely want help, and aren't just here to vent/rant/blow of steam.

Yes, thanks for taking the time, I really appreciate it.

Awww, I don't know how anyone could not like you. You're so adorable.

Awwww, thanks! You're so sweet.

(Funny, my ISFJ friend who I'll be hanging out with tomorrow said almost the same thing, you guys are so cute. )

Yes, it does make sense. Something I do for my emotional well being and health is start over fresh with people, at least in my own mind. It helps me to clear out any negative emotional thoughts/baggage-- which weigh me down and I dislike with a passion. This may not change whatever the other persons annoying thoughts and behaviors are, but it helps me feel more at peace somehow. Just sharing more personal anecdotes.

Yes, it's a good and healthy way to live, and I usually try to do that, too. With the female coworker I complained about, every day I would come back thinking I must have been imagining things and give her the benefit of the doubt and try to be friendly, and then something else would happen and I would get all pissed off again. So for the first year we worked together, I was like "why does she hate me??" and after a few years, I was more like

But at least now I can laugh about it.

And I think having gone through that experience made it a lot easier to deal with the guy at my last job. It only took me a month after I left that job to stop getting super angry whenever I thought about him.

I think you were being smart... I would have done the same thing with someone I didn't trust. Maybe lunch is a bad idea then if she's a backstabber. Knowing this I wouldn't even care if she didn't like me. There's nothing you can do about it. Please remember that not all ESFJs are that way though.

Yeah, after awhile I didn't care that she didn't like me, what I cared about was the fact that she was making my working life difficult and possibly affecting my career, and I didn't know what to do about it.

Don't worry, I do realize that not all ESFJs are like that. I know some really great ESFJs, too.

And I'm glad you don't generalize about type, because I know there are some asshole ENTPs in the world, too.

So, thanks!

 

[redcheerio]

i feel ya, redcheerio. i accidentally piss people off a lot by being flippant about things that others take seriously without realizing until it's too late that i've done so. hanging around with others that get me for a good amount of time can cause me to be a bit too comfortable with being myself and that causes problems when i again get around others who don't know me as well. i forget how truly badly i can come off if not careful, but we do learn and we do want to learn and that combination, more often than not, wins out in the end. great for us; great for them.

Cool, thanks, digesthisickness. Yeah, that happens to me, too. I'm so sad when I can't be myself around someone. I keep assuming they'll figure it out eventually, but sometimes it never happens.

sadly, a lot of our kind of kidding around comes in the form of faux cockiness. i mean, sure, we can be cocky, but unlike those who truly are full of themselves, we're actually aware that we're being full of crap when we do it. hell, even when we're really feeling cocky, we're aware of how much more we have to learn. however, those who don't know that, only see the surface BS, and believe we really think we're as great as we're joking we are.

omg, I'm so glad you get that. I didn't even realize it was an ENTP or an ENP thing, I thought it was just me, and that my friends who "got" it did the same thing sometimes. I do that a lot around friends who get it, so it's a bummer when people don't get it. Actually I think I used to do it more than I do now, maybe I just got tired of the misunderstandings.

the way i usually 'fix' these situations, is to go to them for help. not only does it show that we value something they can contribute, but it also gives them the chance to realize that perhaps they'd judged the situation wrong and opens them up to giving us another chance. asking for advice (about anything) one or two more times after that, mixed in with being yourself, but making it more obvious that you know you're full of crap when acting that way allows them to see you more clearly.

hope this helps.

Hm, that is great advice, thanks.

With the guy at my last job, I did try asking him questions for awhile, and I think it might have worked for awhile. But it was hard to keep it up because I got a new supervisor who had the same technical expertise as me, and who I got along with really well, so it made way more sense to ask him, instead. Also by then I thought it didn't matter so much anymore, but it turned out to matter more than I thought.

Thanks!

 

[redcheerio]

The 'nice' esfj just came over, and for the third time today asked me 'what's wrong'. I told him and another guy (ISTP) that I'm feeling kinda so-so today. Not bad, just not 'on' with the silliness and jokes. So he just gets back from lunch and comes over and asks me again. It's annoying. I had to tell him that nothing's wrong, I'm just not in a talkative mood. I think I hurt him some. Not sure. I feel bad but not to the point of saying sorry. I think he has to learn to chill sometimes.

Yeah, I hear ya.

Oh oh, I can apply something I learned from this thread to make a suggestion...

the ones i know are are super sweet and always go way out of their way to help people and all they want is for you to appreciate it and acknowledge that they're being helpful...so my best advice is to do what you can to make them feel appreciated and valued.

Expressing thanks and appreciation when appropriate sounds really good.

Sooo, maybe if you give him a big thanks for his concern, he'll be happy and leave you alone?

 

[redcheerio]

i have no idea no...i asked my infp bf if si bothered him and he said no not at all but te does him too...so my theory might be shit haha

Haha, well there might be something to it in some cases. I would guess extroverted judgement (Te, Fe) has the most potential to be annoying as well as the most potential to get annoyed at others. After all, it's a form of judging the world around you, which will sometimes mean the people, and judging people will make those being judged annoying to the judger, while it can also make the judger annoying to everyone else.

I dunno, I'm just pulling it out of my butt.

 

[redcheerio]

Answering the title question: my mother-in-law and father-in-law are an ESFJ-ENTP couple, so yes, it's possible...

Wow, interesting. What are they like together?

For me, I'm already married to an INTJ, I was just wondering about how to win over an annoyed ESFJ at work in case I bumble my way into that situation again in future workplaces. This has happened in past workplaces with stressful results that lasted years, that I couldn't figure out how to resolve.

 

[Haven]

What always annoys me about ENTPs seems to always boil down to jokes and the relentless telling of them. And guess what? If I laugh at one, suddenly they zero in on me and tell me like 15 more. It never ends. I've learned my lesson now, I never encourage ENTPs, or do so with great caution because once they start it is nearly impossible to stop them, and suddenly I'm their best friend or whatever.

Really, what's the most frustrating is an ENTP that doesn't listen. If you listen, I can set boundaries for us, and we can live in harmony. If you insist on turning everything into a joke, or force everyone to "use logic" or whatever, you're not listening. While you're busy congratulating yourself on the latest victory in arguing, someone else is hurt that you wont consider what they have to say.

My friend is really chill for an ENTP. He tried to joke around a lot when we were first getting to know each other in high school, and I was just getting annoyed, but I guess he figured out how not to annoy me. Then we discovered partying. Best friends fo' life now

 

[onemoretime]

omg

Yeah, I know one ESFJ who is pretty awesome, and there was another one at the same company who was pretty nice.

As for using things people said against them and twisting it, I wonder if they actually believe in their head that it's justified? Like if disagreeing with someone logically, especially a higher-up, is seen as some kind of terrible disloyalty that should be exposed and punished?

The 2 nightmares that I worked with seemed to feel perfectly justified in their behavior, not only justified but self-satisfied by it, behavior that to me seemed so sneaky and manipulative and nasty as to be nearly sociopathic at times. So I'm wondering if that kind of thought pattern is what allows them to look in the mirror every day and be happy with themselves?

It's called an authoritarian personality. Somewhere around 24% of the population has it. It's exactly what you think - to them, anything the authority says is right, and those who contradict that authority are evil, and must be punished in any way possible. To them, it is impossible to do evil when enforcing the authority's wishes.

What always annoys me about ENTPs seems to always boil down to jokes and the relentless telling of them. And guess what? If I laugh at one, suddenly they zero in on me and tell me like 15 more. It never ends. I've learned my lesson now, I never encourage ENTPs, or do so with great caution because once they start it is nearly impossible to stop them, and suddenly I'm their best friend or whatever.

You'd rather not have friends who are devoted to making you happy?

Really, what's the most frustrating is an ENTP that doesn't listen. If you listen, I can set boundaries for us, and we can live in harmony. If you insist on turning everything into a joke, or force everyone to "use logic" or whatever, you're not listening. While you're busy congratulating yourself on the latest victory in arguing, someone else is hurt that you wont consider what they have to say.

This isn't exactly the best of traits on the part of ENTPs. However, in life, many people have learned that oftentimes "listen" means "agree with what I say."

Look at how you put it - "if you listen, I can set boundaries for us, and we can live in harmony." Doesn't exactly give the other person a lot of space to set the terms of the relationship, does it? Doesn't exactly take what's important to the other person into account, does it? Doesn't exactly imply a relationship of equals, does it?

Quick hint - the whole self-congratulating for rhetorical prowess isn't exactly the best of traits, but doesn't usually happen to good friends who respect and honor an ENTP as an equal. It usually happens to those who try to pull rank or impose their will on the situation in some particular fashion. If your friendships must all be set on your terms, and your terms alone, then it's no surprise that ENTPs counter this aggressive behavior with their own flavor of aggression.

 

[InvisibleJim]

Anything is possible if you are willing to make the appropriate concessions for it to 'work'.

But I guess you should know that already and your question here is 'Can I make it work?'.

If you are asking that question and you are indeed an ENTP then you have answered the question wih 'No' otherwise you would have done so already.

I have yet to meet an EP who is entirely happy to reign in their excesses of behaviour, choice and pleasure seeking regardless of consequences. EJ types are not quite as tolerant of eccentricities as we are nor do they complain then drop it because they would prefer for you to smile rather than to live with the problem as a 'going concern'.

If there is one thing I know about EP types it is never to understimate their ability to do something they think will have no consequences and then to complain when those consequences occur.

 

[Giggly]

^something to ponder.

 

[redcheerio]

What always annoys me about ENTPs seems to always boil down to jokes and the relentless telling of them. And guess what? If I laugh at one, suddenly they zero in on me and tell me like 15 more. It never ends. I've learned my lesson now, I never encourage ENTPs, or do so with great caution because once they start it is nearly impossible to stop them, and suddenly I'm their best friend or whatever.

Hm, to me this sounds like something a high school ENTP might do, but doesn't sound much like an adult ENTP. Enneagram stackings could also come into play here, like if you're sp and he's sx, then he is going to be more inclined to want to get closer to his friends and more quickly than you are.

Really, what's the most frustrating is an ENTP that doesn't listen. If you listen, I can set boundaries for us, and we can live in harmony. If you insist on turning everything into a joke, or force everyone to "use logic" or whatever, you're not listening. While you're busy congratulating yourself on the latest victory in arguing, someone else is hurt that you wont consider what they have to say.

Hm, that makes sense, thanks. I think it is fairly common for young ENTPs to dismiss anything they consider "illogical", including people's feelings. As I get older, my ability to recognize the risk of hurting someone's feelings is getting better. I think when I was younger, in some cases I may have recognized it but dismissed it if I thought the person was being unreasonable or selfish, but I've learned not to be so dismissive.

I'm pretty sure I stopped celebrating argument victories a long time ago, but recently realized (due to something an ENTJ pointed out about ENTPs) that there are other things I've said in the past that may have been perceived as one-upping that weren't intended that way.

My friend is really chill for an ENTP. He tried to joke around a lot when we were first getting to know each other in high school, and I was just getting annoyed, but I guess he figured out how not to annoy me. Then we discovered partying. Best friends fo' life now

How come you didn't like it when he joked around a lot? Do you mean that when you were trying to be serious about something he would make it a joke?

Ah, bonding through partying.

(Even the two worst ESFJs I've met in my life I've had fun partying with at least once each, haha. I probably would have liked them both if I never had to work with them.)

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to think about it and answer....

 

[redcheerio]

It's called an authoritarian personality. Somewhere around 24% of the population has it. It's exactly what you think - to them, anything the authority says is right, and those who contradict that authority are evil, and must be punished in any way possible. To them, it is impossible to do evil when enforcing the authority's wishes.

Hm, makes sense, thanks. I'll take that more seriously in the future before opening my mouth if I disagree with someone in authority.