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  1. #41
    Senior Member redcheerio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Anything is possible if you are willing to make the appropriate concessions for it to 'work'.

    But I guess you should know that already and your question here is 'Can I make it work?'.

    If you are asking that question and you are indeed an ENTP then you have answered the question wih 'No' otherwise you would have done so already.
    In regards to "making it work", there are two questions to consider:
    1) What is necessary to make it work?
    2) Am I willing to do so?

    According to what I previously thought was necessary to make it work, you're correct, my answer to #2 was NO.

    However, the point of this thread was to reconsider and get a better understanding of the answer to #1, with the help of some friendly ESFJs, or others who might be able to provide insight. And I do appreciate the insight that has been provided here, it has been enlightening!

    I now have a different and more informed view of what I could do next time, to do a better job of relationship building with future coworkers, especially ESFJs.


    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    I have yet to meet an EP who is entirely happy to reign in their excesses of behaviour, choice and pleasure seeking regardless of consequences. EJ types are not quite as tolerant of eccentricities as we are nor do they complain then drop it because they would prefer for you to smile rather than to live with the problem as a 'going concern'.

    If there is one thing I know about EP types it is never to understimate their ability to do something they think will have no consequences and then to complain when those consequences occur.
    Well most of the time, the problem is that we aren't aware of what we do that is considered an "excess of behavior". We are just being ourselves. We don't have a clear understanding of the difference between reigning things in a bit and being inauthentic, and we don't have a good understanding of what behaviors might be useful to reign in a bit. Again, this thread has provided a bit of insight about that, also.

    If you have anything to add about what you consider to be ENTP excesses of behavior, I'd be interested to hear it, thanks.

  2. #42
    Blind Guardian Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    You'd rather not have friends who are devoted to making you happy?
    It's not that I don't like to joke around and have fun, I do, that's why I get so torn up about it, it's just that things have to be a "certain way" before I can really let go, and if someone is getting in my way it can be frustrating. It happens all the time, believe me.


    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Look at how you put it - "if you listen, I can set boundaries for us, and we can live in harmony." Doesn't exactly give the other person a lot of space to set the terms of the relationship, does it? Doesn't exactly take what's important to the other person into account, does it? Doesn't exactly imply a relationship of equals, does it?
    It doesn't feel like a relationship of equals if I'm not being taken seriously. I'm sure I could've worded it differently to make you happy, but hey this is me off the cuff.

    Quick hint - the whole self-congratulating for rhetorical prowess isn't exactly the best of traits, but doesn't usually happen to good friends who respect and honor an ENTP as an equal. It usually happens to those who try to pull rank or impose their will on the situation in some particular fashion. If your friendships must all be set on your terms, and your terms alone, then it's no surprise that ENTPs counter this aggressive behavior with their own flavor of aggression.
    Well I wasn't really asking for advice, and you don't know anything about me, so... yea... my only term is to be taken seriously and not have everything I say and do become a joke. All within reason of course.
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  3. #43
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    It's not that I don't like to joke around and have fun, I do, that's why I get so torn up about it, it's just that things have to be a "certain way" before I can really let go, and if someone is getting in my way it can be frustrating. It happens all the time, believe me.

    It doesn't feel like a relationship of equals if I'm not being taken seriously. I'm sure I could've worded it differently to make you happy, but hey this is me off the cuff.
    I think it came across just fine. Rather not have you obscure what you mean.

    Well I wasn't really asking for advice, and you don't know anything about me, so... yea... my only term is to be taken seriously and not have everything I say and do become a joke. All within reason of course.
    Hmm. Sure the guy is not just taking the piss out of you for taking yourself entirely too seriously? Just a thought...

  4. #44
    Blind Guardian Haven's Avatar
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    what guy? All of what I said refers to things in the distant past and isn't so much of an issue anymore.
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  5. #45
    Senior Member redcheerio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Hmm. Sure the guy is not just taking the piss out of you for taking yourself entirely too seriously? Just a thought...
    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    what guy? All of what I said refers to things in the distant past and isn't so much of an issue anymore.
    To clarify, I asked Haven to tell me more about his ENTP best friend from high school because I was interested in that ESFJ/ENTP dynamic. Early in the thread, he said that he had first been annoyed by him (back in high school), and now they are best friends.

    I found that interesting because I've had some major trouble at a couple of workplaces with ESFJs getting annoyed with me, and not knowing what to do about it. It was bad enough that both of them tried to get me fired (two separate workplaces, they don't know each other), so it made for a very stressful work environment in both cases.

    I know part of the problem is not understanding each other's motives, so wanted to get a better understanding from their perspective so that I can avoid similar problems in the future.

  6. #46
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    I wish to take care of redcheerio like a most beloved treasure (not that she needs it but my Fe controls me).

  7. #47
    Senior Member redcheerio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    I wish to take care of redcheerio like a most beloved treasure (not that she needs it but my Fe controls me).
    Aw, you're so cute, thanks....

    How ISFJ of you to want to take care of people.... You bring out my feely side.

  8. #48
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    I have yet to meet an EP who is entirely happy to reign in their excesses of behaviour, choice and pleasure seeking regardless of consequences.
    This is bullshit. What you are talking about, is maturity levels now, not types. It's as if you're speaking of Ne going whack in isolation. That's not likely to happen. You need to meet a more varied sample of EPs. Or to actually try to understand what EPs are about, where THEY'RE coming from; rather than thinking that you've gotten them pinned under YOUR microscope and thus, all figured out.

    It's like coming up with a half-assed hypothesis, and, "observing" through personal bias (not objectively), and thus, concluding that your hypothesis is, indeed, "correct" while you pat yourself on the back for a job well done, bucko! Self-congratulatory to the point of being ridiculously delusional.

    Even if we look at it from a theoretical perspective, it's blatantly contradictory to what we would expect:


    ENTP - Ti reigns in Ne's whimsy, and systematically calculates the consequences of the action, and determines whether to follow course. And, if we are satisfied with the WHY of the conclusion, we are happy, we are content.
    ENFP - Fi reigns in Ne's whimsy, and systematically values the consequences of the action, and determines whether to follow course. And, if they're satified with the WHY of the conclusion, I'd guess they would be quite happy and content, as well.

    So, that thought of yours = BULLSHIT.

    EJ types are not quite as tolerant of eccentricities as we are
    Again, bullshit.

    Anecdotally speaking, the ENFJs I know (some of my closest friends) are just as much, if not more, emphatically so, encouraging of my quirkiness than my equally close bf, the INTJ.

    If there is one thing I know about EP types it is never to understimate their ability to do something they think will have no consequences and then to complain when those consequences occur.
    You don't know even ONE thing about EPs, then, it seems. Because the idea that we so grossly misjudge consequences is neither supported by RL examples, nor by theory. AND, we're more likely to roll with the punches than sit in the corner and whine and complain about the consequences, like say, INTJs with their micro-managing planning would be more likely do.

    We may sometimes NOT CARE about the consequences the same way you might, or see different aspects of the consequences as more important than others (unlike yourself), but that does not then logically conclude that we think there are "NO consequences". <- that's your personal bias talking, not an objectively-derived conclusion.

    You are making EP types sound like we have no concept of cause/effect or any self-control. Stop misrepresenting us, and think twice before commenting on things you know jack all about. It just highlights YOUR OWN skewed view of "superiority" and self-conceit, while making no accurate commentary on EPs.

    Arrogance is ignorance with a mask. Condescending arrogance is when insecurity whines.

    Stop whining.

    Quote Originally Posted by digesthisickness View Post
    i feel ya, redcheerio. i accidentally piss people off a lot by being flippant about things that others take seriously without realizing until it's too late that i've done so. hanging around with others that get me for a good amount of time can cause me to be a bit too comfortable with being myself and that causes problems when i again get around others who don't know me as well. i forget how truly badly i can come off if not careful, but we do learn and we do want to learn and that combination, more often than not, wins out in the end. great for us; great for them.
    +1

    sadly, a lot of our kind of kidding around comes in the form of faux cockiness. i mean, sure, we can be cocky, but unlike those who truly are full of themselves, we're actually aware that we're being full of crap when we do it. hell, even when we're really feeling cocky, we're aware of how much more we have to learn. however, those who don't know that, only see the surface BS, and believe we really think we're as great as we're joking we are.
    On the ball, and a very important point about ENTPs. We're actually likely being self-deprecating through our "cocky" veneer. It's sarcasm. It's, for me, a way of weeding out those who are superficially interested in getting to know me, and those who are not, and thus, willing to tread beneath the surface.

    the way i usually 'fix' these situations, is to go to them for help. not only does it show that we value something they can contribute, but it also gives them the chance to realize that perhaps they'd judged the situation wrong and opens them up to giving us another chance. asking for advice (about anything) one or two more times after that, mixed in with being yourself, but making it more obvious that you know you're full of crap when acting that way allows them to see you more clearly.

    hope this helps.
    Spot-on advice.

    Quote Originally Posted by redcheerio View Post
    Hm, that makes sense, thanks. Funny you should mention going to lunch a lot, because she used to invite me to lunch sometimes, and I never opened up to her because I didn't trust her. She used to complain about other coworkers when they weren't around, and use things they'd confided in her against them with the boss. Now I'm wondering if she was sincerely trying to make an effort, and I made things worse by keeping quiet. I always had the impression she was trying to set traps for me, since she often said things to the boss to get him pissed off at others in the office. Hm, I'm still not sure whether I was being smart or paranoid.
    I've been in similar situations, and, my advice? Trust your intuition. Trust what it's picking up about the pattern of that person. If they can do it to others, then it's within their "moral" capacity to also do it to you. Be wary.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    This is bullshit.
    QQ bro.

  10. #50
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Play nice, y'all.

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