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  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by redcheerio View Post
    Here's some insight I'd like to understand better. It seems common that we ENTPs don't have a very good understanding of when we've crossed the line from playful to irritating. I know I don't.

    It took meeting other ENTPs in person and being painfully honest with myself to realize that I could possibly be annoying sometimes.

    So what are some clues that we're crossing that line? I'm guessing we can push the line a bit further out by first getting people to like us and understand where we're coming from, right? What about people who just get annoyed by our existence? Is there any hope for reconciliation with them?

    It seems like as an adult I get along pretty easily with about 99% of the population, while about 1% hates my guts no matter what I do.


    Oh if you're aware of this you must have good Fe, which I've noticed in a number of female ENTPs (don't know if you're male or female).

    I'm pretty sure irritating ENTPs know they're being irritating, and it delights them.

    I still find them strangely lovable though. Two of the ENTPs I clashed the most with on this site I also have affection for.

  2. #72
    Senior Member redcheerio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Oh if you're aware of this you must have good Fe, which I've noticed in a number of female ENTPs (don't know if you're male or female).

    I'm pretty sure irritating ENTPs know they're being irritating, and it delights them.

    I still find them strangely lovable though. Two of the ENTPs I clashed the most with on this site I also have affection for.
    Thanks, and yep, I'm female. (Hope the avatar isn't too misleading, I just used it because someone posted it in another thread and it cracked me up so I couldn't resist.)

    While it may be true that some ENTPs delight in irritating people, I think for others it's more a case that they are too caught up amusing themselves to realize that they are irritating other people.

    So I would guess that it starts out as amusing ourselves in some way that happens to irritate others, and from there, it's a matter of whether a) we recognize that what we're doing is irritating others, b) deciding whether that bothers us, and c) deciding whether to change our behavior accordingly. I think irritating others is the byproduct that we're not always aware of, and that some just say fuck it and go on doing it anyway.

    I usually would prefer not to irritate others, but if I think someone is being a jerk or unfair by getting irritated with me, then I'll take the fuck-it route, too.

    PS - I think it's mutual, I usually find ENFPs pretty lovable, too. One of my besties is ENFP. In fact, I was about to give her a call.

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by redcheerio View Post
    Thanks, and yep, I'm female. (Hope the avatar isn't too misleading, I just used it because someone posted it in another thread and it cracked me up so I couldn't resist.)

    While it may be true that some ENTPs delight in irritating people, I think for others it's more a case that they are too caught up amusing themselves to realize that they are irritating other people.

    So I would guess that it starts out as amusing ourselves in some way that happens to irritate others, and from there, it's a matter of whether a) we recognize that what we're doing is irritating others, b) deciding whether that bothers us, and c) deciding whether to change our behavior accordingly. I think irritating others is the byproduct that we're not always aware of, and that some just say fuck it and go on doing it anyway.

    I usually would prefer not to irritate others, but if I think someone is being a jerk or unfair by getting irritated with me, then I'll take the fuck-it route, too.

    PS - I think it's mutual, I usually find ENFPs pretty lovable, too. One of my besties is ENFP. In fact, I was about to give her a call.
    Oh I think ENFPs fuck with people too...for some reason I think this is nature of Ne to entertain ourselves in this fashion...I've just had ENTPs persistently mess with me because they knew it made me squirm...and keep pushing...and keep pushing...I've had SFJ guys do this too (but they cave more easily, they show how amused they are or feel guilty or something unless they truly hate you). ENTPs remind me more of a scientist with a lab rat, "ooh look at it squirm!"

    I only do this to people when I feel like they deserve it, or if they need to learn some crucial lesson they seem to have missed along the way. I like to poke people, but I'm not going to put people in tears, and I don't think some *immature, mostly male* ENTPs mind doing that at all.

  4. #74
    Senior Member redcheerio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Oh I think ENFPs fuck with people too...for some reason I think this is nature of Ne to entertain ourselves in this fashion...I've just had ENTPs persistently mess with me because they knew it made me squirm...and keep pushing...and keep pushing...I've had SFJ guys do this too (but they cave more easily, they show how amused they are or feel guilty or something unless they truly hate you). ENTPs remind me more of a scientist with a lab rat, "ooh look at it squirm!"

    I only do this to people when I feel like they deserve it, or if they need to learn some crucial lesson they seem to have missed along the way. I like to poke people, but I'm not going to put people in tears, and I don't think some *immature, mostly male* ENTPs mind doing that at all.
    Hm, makes sense.

    For me, when I push people, it's usually not so much because I like making them squirm (although I've been guilty of that before, too), but more that I think they have a blind spot about something and I'm trying to expose it to them. The very reason it's a blind spot is because it makes them uncomfortable to look there.

    But yes, there is also the ENTP tendency for one-upping, which can part of it, too. Even that is sometimes intentional and sometimes not.

  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by redcheerio View Post
    Hm, makes sense.

    For me, when I push people, it's usually not so much because I like making them squirm (although I've been guilty of that before, too), but more that I think they have a blind spot about something and I'm trying to expose it to them. The very reason it's a blind spot is because it makes them uncomfortable to look there.
    Yeah I actually identify with the bolded. I do the same.

    But yes, there is also the ENTP tendency for one-upping, which can part of it, too. Even that is sometimes intentional and sometimes not.
    I don't know some ENTPs are perfectly wonderful, and I will argue with people and I have no problem with that.

    I think it's the "I'm right, you're wrong, ha ha ha you're a feeler" thing that gets old. And not every ENTP does that, I just want to clarify.

  6. #76
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redcheerio View Post
    Hm, makes sense.

    For me, when I push people, it's usually not so much because I like making them squirm (although I've been guilty of that before, too), but more that I think they have a blind spot about something and I'm trying to expose it to them. The very reason it's a blind spot is because it makes them uncomfortable to look there.
    A blind spot? This is not true. Perhaps they have already looked at this spot and made a decision about it that just happens to be different than yours.

    My perception based on the ENTP I know is that they don't know that they are being irritating at first and then soon realize that they are, and deliberately prod the SJ because they think the SJ is wrong. Which of course then turns into teasing for the ENTPs own amusement (because they are silly/playful like that). Which irritates the SJ even more and makes them more stubborn... which then turns into a big ol' stupid battle of the wills.

    Hopefully this doesn't happen often and drain away at the relationship but after a few occasions of this they both learn how to work out disagreements in a way that is more reverent and open-minded to each other. It takes dedication and focus though so at the very least you have to value/care about each other.

  7. #77
    Senior Member redcheerio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Yeah I actually identify with the bolded. I do the same.
    Yeah, I think ENTPs and ENFPs both like the challenge of arguments/ discussions sometimes involving disagreement and learning, partly because it's fun sharing insights, and partly because we keep learning other people's insights this way. Is that how it is for you, too?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    I don't know some ENTPs are perfectly wonderful, and I will argue with people and I have no problem with that.

    I think it's the "I'm right, you're wrong, ha ha ha you're a feeler" thing that gets old. And not every ENTP does that, I just want to clarify.
    It's true, I do see a lot of that from ENTPs, and from Ts in general. I'm sure it must be especially annoying for Fs to put up with. Ts act like they're intellectually superior because they're T, which of course is a fallacy. People just like to have reasons to feel superior to others, so they look for excuses like that.

  8. #78
    Senior Member redcheerio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redcheerio View Post
    Hm, makes sense.

    For me, when I push people, it's usually not so much because I like making them squirm (although I've been guilty of that before, too), but more that I think they have a blind spot about something and I'm trying to expose it to them. The very reason it's a blind spot is because it makes them uncomfortable to look there.

    But yes, there is also the ENTP tendency for one-upping, which can part of it, too. Even that is sometimes intentional and sometimes not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    A blind spot? This is not true. Perhaps they have already looked at this spot and made a decision about it that just happens to be different than yours.
    Well that's true, and a great point.


    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    My perception based on the ENTP I know is that they don't know that they are being irritating at first and then soon realize that they are, and deliberately prod the SJ because they think the SJ is wrong. Which of course then turns into teasing for the ENTPs own amusement (because they are silly/playful like that). Which irritates the SJ even more and makes them more stubborn... which then turns into a big ol' stupid battle of the wills.
    Hm, yeah, that makes sense. I think another part of the reason ENTPs like to push is because we want to learn from others, so push them to explain themselves so that we can understand their perspective better. For me, it bugs me when I don't understand someone else's perspective, so I prod them to explain it so that I can understand it. I think that since a lot of people are unable or unwilling to explain or articulate the reasoning behind their opinions, being prodded this way is annoying or frustrating for them.

    Whether the ENTP realizes they are being irritating or not, once they reach the point where the other person is unable or unwilling to explain their viewpoint, the ENTP prods a bit more in hopes of getting a better explanation out of them, and if it doesn't work, then they switch to teasing in attempt to keep it good-natured. Some ENTPs also use that to feel like they've "won" or one-upped the other person, but I think the initial intent is to try to figure people and their opinions out like puzzles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    Hopefully this doesn't happen often and drain away at the relationship but after a few occasions of this they both learn how to work out disagreements in a way that is more reverent and open-minded to each other. It takes dedication and focus though so at the very least you have to value/care about each other.
    That's a good point, and something that usually takes time for ENTPs to figure out. So we end up being annoying as young people, and perhaps much easier to be around as we become more seasoned, mature, and secure enough in ourselves to resist the urge for one-upping people. It takes us awhile to realize how much we do it, though, since some of what we do is perceived that way when it wasn't intended that way. I think it comes from the Ne tendency to love always reaching and stretching for the next thing, if that makes any sense.

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by redcheerio View Post
    Yeah, I think ENTPs and ENFPs both like the challenge of arguments/ discussions sometimes involving disagreement and learning, partly because it's fun sharing insights, and partly because we keep learning other people's insights this way. Is that how it is for you, too?
    Yes that's exactly how it is. It can be exciting and challenging to disagree, and I learn sometimes from arguments. And sometimes it's just fun to banter and go back and forth with the verbal barbs, I'm not going to lie. It depends on how mean it gets, though, past a certain point of cruelty or nitpicking it's no longer fun for me and just seems mean and unnecessary.

    Yes, I do like to argue with NTs a lot, but I also feel like they're the ones most likely to cross the line into being truly mean, for some reason, at least on forums. I'm pretty tough too, I'm not a "fragile" NF by any means. I just think at a point it just becomes degrading.

    It's true, I do see a lot of that from ENTPs, and from Ts in general. I'm sure it must be especially annoying for Fs to put up with. Ts act like they're intellectually superior because they're T, which of course is a fallacy. People just like to have reasons to feel superior to others, so they look for excuses like that.
    Yes, this has happened to me. Sometimes the T is super-intelligent and they do have something to teach me, sometimes we're equally intelligent and just see things from a different angle (and they're disregarding mine because it's a Feeler/relationship/ethical angle)....and occasionally I feel as though the NT isn't very bright, and they're totally wrong, and that's the most frustrating...there's nothing like a not-very-bright or incorrect NT who still thinks he or she is smarter than you.

  10. #80
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    Oh dear you guys are gonna be pissed, but I think I've been talking about an ISTJ all along.

    Heh.

    The stuff I said about Ne still applies.

    *runs and hides*

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