[SJ] My theory on why SJs are perceived as closed minded

[Thalassa]

I've always had an insatiable curiousity about different people, the more different the better. You couldn't pry me off of any foreign exchange student, or person who came from a completely different upbringing of some kind than me.

This was especially strong in me while very young, late teens early twenties, wanting to meet a diverse cross-section of people and experiencing all of these new things, and living in different situations, like experiencing all kinds of crazy and interesting things.

Do you relate to that AT ALL?

 

[Elfboy]

My high school experience involved knowing and talking to people from various social groups and backgrounds, from living in upper-middle class houses and having a brand new car their parents bought them, to high school dropouts whose parents lived in single-wide trailers in gravel parking lots and received welfare.

While I don't like stupid or obnoxious people, it's true, I'm pretty accepting of people, and I've noticed that other ENFPs tend to say similar things, about being able to adjust, or about being accepting or tolerant to a degree.

Your insistence on "class" seems really rigid to me for an ExFP, ENFP or ESFP, especially for one as young as yourself.

Of course your Fi could just have very particular values, but like dude, I dunno.

they're really not as rigid as they appear, I just happen to speak using a lot of Te. if I am really a 3w4, this aspect would also be explained a little better.
PS: I think the underlying problem is that my reasons behind creating certain threads are much more complicated than the actual thread itself, that combined with the controversiality of most of my opinions leads most people be like "What do you mean by that Elfboy?". it gets even worse because I seem to explain things in a way that either confuses people more or gives an overly simplistic representation of my opinion which is usually misleading, so the thread continues to move away from it's original context and moves to talking about Elfboy, what he really thinks and how he could possibly think what he does. this gives the impression that I am
- extremely self congratulatory
- ignorant
- possibly rigid
- insecure
- judgemental
when really it stems from having complicated and controversial views that I seem to be unable to articulate correctly

 

[Elfboy]

I've always had an insatiable curiousity about different people, the more different the better. You couldn't pry me off of any foreign exchange student, or person who came from a completely different upbringing of some kind than me.

This was especially strong in me while very young, late teens early twenties, wanting to meet a diverse cross-section of people and experiencing all of these new things, and living in different situations, like experiencing all kinds of crazy and interesting things.

Do you relate to that AT ALL?

I relate to about 90% of it actually, further supporting the idea that I am not communicating my views properly.

 

[Thalassa]

they're really not as rigid as they appear, I just happen to speak using a lot of Te. if I am really a 3w4, this aspect would also be explained a little better.
PS: I think the underlying problem is that my reasons behind creating certain threads are much more complicated than the actual thread itself, that combined with the controversiality of most of my opinions leads most people be like "What do you mean by that Elfboy?". it gets even worse because I seem to explain things in a way that either confuses people more or gives an overly simplistic representation of my opinion which is usually misleading, so the thread continues to move away from it's original context and moves to talking about Elfboy, what he really thinks and how he could possibly think what he does. this gives the impression that I am
- extremely self congratulatory
- ignorant
- possibly rigid
- insecure
- judgemental
when really it stems from having complicated and controversial views that I seem to be unable to articulate correctly

You seem like an elitist 4. I also don't think this has jack shit to do with Te.

 

[Elfboy]

You seem like an elitist 4. I also don't think this has jack shit to do with Te.

not impossible

 

[EJCC]

So far, pretty much believe most of you fu**s are either sociopaths or messed-up people. Sorry to say it, but i will never pretend. I will always tell the truth, no matter what the cost. It's the only way I can hold onto myself and guess what? ME is more important than you can ever be. I will give you this: you are here, and that is good enough. I like the fact that you are here. I find it interesting.

Not speaking for everyone else here, but I was just trying to make a point. The post of yours that I replied to, I replied to because it made me sad, especially in light of the fact that you've been nice to me and you've posted on my thread. So I wanted to defend myself and my SJ kin - and now I'm guessing that I am now one of the sociopaths/messed-up people you just vented at. But the best way to respond to that is to be open-minded and accepting anyway, and keep in mind that you've been nice before and judge you for that instead.

See what I did just there?

Not all SJs are closed minded, but if you're closed minded.... you're probably an SJ (or an ENTJ). That's fair enough right everyone, even SJs?

I hope you're being sarcastic.

But yeah there's tons of creative open-minded SJs too..... Martha Stewart, Sinatra, etc (alright that took me too long to come up with). Most ESFJs I know are open-minded about certain things, and definitely not rigid. An SJ with a lot of extroverted sensing will usually be open to experience... etc.

I don't like the tendency of people on this forum to go "Yeah, there are some nice/creative/open-minded SJs in the world, but most of them aren't." Everyone can be closed-minded!! The most closed-minded people I know are NOT SJs, but are types that are not stereotyped as being closed-minded, e.g. INTJs and ENFPs!

Okay, I've dealt with people venting at me for years on this forum, so it's time for me to vent back.

One of the main reasons why I'm on this forum at all is to help people understand my type. And I've seen people on this forum write things along the lines of "EJCC is a good example of a well-adjusted ESTJ, which makes her an exception to the rule, because most ESTJs are dictatorial assholes who never listen to an opposing opinion." And that just kills me. I am not the exception to a general rule! Consider all the SJs on this forum! Would you consider them to be closed-minded? I certainly wouldn't.

The people who REALLY strike me as closed-minded here are the people who hate on SJs. This includes many of the people on this thread. And they are - guess what? - SPs, NTs and NFs. There are a LOT of NTs on this forum who are ridiculously closed-minded in that regard. And even though you'd think that those hyper-rational NTs would want to understand what they think is inferior/irrational/whatever, they simply don't care enough, which is why you hardly ever see them in the SJ Guardhouse, unless it's in a thread like this. So much for the eternal quest for knowledge that they care so much about.

And as I've said earlier in the thread, if you look for SJs by looking for traditionalists, you might be missing a lot of people who break your stereotypes, and mistyping traditionalists of other types as being SJ. You would mistype several INFJ friends of mine as being ISFJ. You would probably mistype me as being ENFP, and mistype many of the SJs on this forum as being ISTP, INTJ, etc. This point has already been made to death, and no one has responded to it, except for Marm and shortnsweet, but they're only two people and so many other people are involved.

So many good points, from them and others, have been comparatively ignored in favor of this ridiculous character debate that hasn't been going anywhere. So let's get back on task, shall we?

 

[ajblaise]

I hope you're being sarcastic.

Nope, just making generalizations. For example, would you really say that the average ESFP isn't any more open-minded and non-rigid than the average ISTJ?

That's just an obvious trend, nothing that has to be interpreted in a black-and-white way (even if a lot do), it's not saying all ESFPs are more open-minded than ISTJs, or even most.

And the posters that do make black-and-white comments about SJs, if it's not a joke, sure, they're being typist.

I don't like the tendency of people on this forum to go "Yeah, there are some nice/creative/open-minded SJs in the world, but most of them aren't." Everyone can be closed-minded!! The most closed-minded people I know are NOT SJs, but are types that are not stereotyped as being closed-minded, e.g. INTJs and ENFPs!

Okay, I've dealt with people venting at me for years on this forum, so it's time for me to vent back.

One of the main reasons why I'm on this forum at all is to help people understand my type. And I've seen people on this forum write things along the lines of "EJCC is a good example of a well-adjusted ESTJ, which makes her an exception to the rule, because most ESTJs are dictatorial assholes who never listen to an opposing opinion." And that just kills me. I am not the exception to a general rule! Consider all the SJs on this forum! Would you consider them to be closed-minded? I certainly wouldn't.

The people who REALLY strike me as closed-minded here are the people who hate on SJs. This includes many of the people on this thread. And they are - guess what? - SPs, NTs and NFs. There are a LOT of NTs on this forum who are ridiculously closed-minded in that regard. And even though you'd think that those hyper-rational NTs would want to understand what they think is inferior/irrational/whatever, they simply don't care enough, which is why you hardly ever see them in the SJ Guardhouse, unless it's in a thread like this. So much for the eternal quest for knowledge that they care so much about.

And as I've said earlier in the thread, if you look for SJs by looking for traditionalists, you might be missing a lot of people who break your stereotypes, and mistyping traditionalists of other types as being SJ. You would mistype several INFJ friends of mine as being ISFJ. You would probably mistype me as being ENFP, and mistype many of the SJs on this forum as being ISTP, INTJ, etc. This point has already been made to death, and no one has responded to it, except for Marm and shortnsweet, but they're only two people and so many other people are involved.

So many good points, from them and others, have been comparatively ignored in favor of this ridiculous character debate that hasn't been going anywhere. So let's get back on task, shall we?

Agreed.

 

[EJCC]

Nope, just making generalizations. For example, would you really say that the average ESFP isn't any more open-minded and non-rigid than the average ISTJ?

Probably not; you're right. But I would say that the average INTJ or INFJ is more closed-minded than the average ISTJ, if only because ISTJs are more easily convinced by concrete fact. With a lot of Ns, you get more resistance to contrary information, because they deal so much more with general concepts than small individual facts. It's easier to buy a new cog to replace an old one, when the old cog isn't a key part in a huge intuitive machine.

Agreed.

Yay! Excellent.

 

[Elfboy]

nope, just making generalizations. For example, would you really say that the average ESFP isn't any more open-minded and non-rigid than the average ISTJ?
That's just an obvious trend, nothing that has to be interpreted in a black-and-white way (even if a lot do), it's not saying all ESFPs are more open-minded than ISTJS, or even most.
And the posters that do make black-and-white comments about SJs, if it's not a joke, sure, they're being typist

bingo! this is part of what the OP was getting at. ENTPs and ENFPs don't fall into close minded thought patterns when lazy, SJs often do, but SJs that are balanced and are willing to take the mental energy to consider new contrary to what they already think are no more closed minded than other cognitively balanced people.
PS: however, ENTPs can ENFPs can display closed minded tendencies under high levels of stress

 

[Thalassa]

bingo! this is part of what the OP was getting at. ENTPs and ENFPs don't fall into close minded thought patterns when lazy, SJs often do, but SJs that are balanced and are willing to take the mental energy to consider new contrary to what they already think are no more closed minded than other cognitively balanced people.
PS: however, ENTPs can ENFPs can display closed minded tendencies under high levels of stress

Yeah but you're skipping over all of those self-congratulatory closed-minded NTJs, too.

You can't just contrast ENFP and ISTJ. That's not objective or fair. It's not even about being "nice" or "tolerant"...it's not even fucking logical.

Did you see the ISTP just call us all sociopaths? Have you not missed how closed minded you can be? The stuff you've said in this thread I commented on was pretty outrageously closed-minded.

Si does have a particular inflexibility, but so does Ni in a way, as someone has already pointed out. Except in Ni doms we just call it "being delusional."

 

[EJCC]

bingo! this is part of what the OP was getting at. ENTPs and ENFPs don't fall into close minded thought patterns when lazy, SJs often do, but SJs that are balanced and are willing to take the mental energy to consider new contrary to what they already think are no more closed minded than other cognitively balanced people.

It really doesn't take that much energy. It's not even remotely draining. I'm starting to think that either everyone's overestimating the amount of "processing time" it takes for SJs to deal with contradictory information, or ESTJs are just different from all the other SJs in this regard. I swear, if you give me enough concrete and trustworthy evidence, I'd believe anything. And AGAIN - I keep mentioning this and no one addresses it* - the average Ni type is just as closed-minded, if not more so.

Also, I disagree with the bolded. I've seen this interaction with ENFPs on multiple occasions:
ENFP: This is true, this is false.
Other person: Actually... *insert contrary facts here*
ENFP: Oh, well of COURSE that's true. What I MEANT to say was that this is true MOST of the time, and this is OFTEN false.
Other person: Actually... *more facts*

And I would argue, Elfboy, that your interactions with shortnsweet and others, earlier in the thread, are also examples of this - namely, how you made a fairly lazy blanket statement about how you dislike 80% of SJs, and then clarified (and backpedaled) the hell out of it.

For the record, though, that's probably more to do with Ne than anything else.

PS: however, ENTPs can ENFPs can display closed minded tendencies under high levels of stress

As can every type.

*Edit:

Yeah but you're skipping over all of those self-congratulatory closed-minded NTJs, too.

Exactly!!

You can't just contrast ENFP and ISTJ. That's not objective or fair. It's not even about being "nice" or "tolerant"...it's not even fucking logical.

No, it's logical. Because what he's really doing is contrasting himself with ISTJs.

Did you see the ISTP just call us all sociopaths? Have you not missed how closed minded you can be? The stuff you've said in this thread I commented on was pretty outrageously closed-minded.

Si does have a particular inflexibility, but so does Ni in a way, as someone has already pointed out. Except in Ni doms we just call it "being delusional."

When you really SHOULD call it being closed-minded. Except for that one time when the poster formerly known as BlueWing decided that SJs were "less evolved" than NTs. That was completely delusional. And funny, in a sad sort of way.

 

[Haven]

bingo! this is part of what the OP was getting at. smart people don't fall into close minded thought patterns when lazy, idiots often do, but idiots that are balanced and are willing to take the mental energy to consider new contrary to what they already think are no more closed minded than other cognitively balanced people.
PS: however, smart people can display closed minded tendencies under high levels of stress

Here, I fixed that for you.

 

[Elfboy]

It really doesn't take that much energy. It's not even remotely draining. I'm starting to think that either everyone's overestimating the amount of "processing time" it takes for SJs to deal with contradictory information, or ESTJs are just different from all the other SJs in this regard. I swear, if you give me enough concrete and trustworthy evidence, I'd believe anything. And AGAIN - I keep mentioning this and no one addresses it* - the average Ni type is just as closed-minded, if not more so.

Also, I disagree with the bolded. I've seen this interaction with ENFPs on multiple occasions:
ENFP: This is true, this is false.
Other person: Actually... *insert contrary facts here*
ENFP: Oh, well of COURSE that's true. What I MEANT to say was that this is true MOST of the time, and this is OFTEN false.
Other person: Actually... *more facts*

And I would argue, Elfboy, that your interactions with shortnsweet and others, earlier in the thread, are also examples of this - namely, how you made a fairly lazy blanket statement about how you dislike 80% of SJs, and then clarified (and backpedaled) the hell out of it.

bolded: I would argue a little bit of both. ESTJs have Te as their first function and Ne as their 3rd, so they're likely able to process new live information extremely quickly. you're also right about the first part, the earlier responses to this thread (before all the conspiracy about "what is Elfboy REALLY thinking") showed there were clear flaws in my theory.
PS: guilty as charged, the example you sited is extremely common among ENFPs. this is more of a problem with wording than anything else though. ENFPs by nature almost never make black and white generalizations in our thoughts and beliefs, but we often word them in ways that make them sound like they are (I brought this up earlier in the thread with Marm saying that my ideas are apparently miscommunicated because I don't word properly). the idea of correlation does not equal causation is rather implied for us, we just tend to word things in ways that sound like causes to other people when we need to state clearly that they're loose correlations (at least, myself and most of the ENFPs I've observed seem to struggle at least a little bit with this).

 

[Elfboy]

Here, I fixed that for you.

no you didn't. idiots who are balanced and willing to take the time and energy to examine new information are not idiots.

 

[mrcockburn]

FWIW Elfboy, you remind me a lot of several ISFJs - male ISFJs. So you better make sure you're not that type before you go around making backhanded remarks about them.

And like fuck you're a 3w4...that's my e-type, and 3's don't have issues with lacking friends, quite the opposite, really. Sounds more like some kind of 4w5 thing, though you strike me more as a counterphobic 6. And it's not that you're so elite and picky, really. No one was even approaching you to begin with, right?

 

[Elfboy]

FWIW Elfboy, you remind me a lot of several ISFJs - male ISFJs. So you better make sure you're not that type before you go around making backhanded remarks about them.

And like fuck you're a 3w4...that's my e-type, and 3's don't have issues with lacking friends, quite the opposite, really. Sounds more like some kind of 4w5 thing, though you strike me more as a counterphobic 6. And it's not that you're so elite and picky, really. No one was even approaching you to begin with, right?

where did I backhand ISFJs? the only things I've said about them are that
1) they can get on my nerves when they're overlly passive
and
2) they make wonderful friends because they're loyal, forgiving and affectionate
PS: I seem like an ISFJ? if I were to name the type I see the least of in myself, that would probably be it

 

[Elfboy]

And like fuck you're a 3w4...that's my e-type, and 3's don't have issues with lacking friends, quite the opposite, really. Sounds more like some kind of 4w5 thing, though you strike me more as a counterphobic 6. And it's not that you're so elite and picky, really. No one was even approaching you to begin with, right?

actually, a lot of people have approached me in the past. apparently my personality is very entertaining and charismatic, but I found their attention offensive, so I shoooed them away. I don't relate to any aspect type 6 that I've read about, especially counterphobic 6. 6s have a reputation for being nervous and when they do show aggression, it's of an extremely personal nature. when I'm aggressive, it's cold as ice, relatively emotionless and cut throat.

 

[Thalassa]

actually, a lot of people have approached me in the past. apparently my personality is very entertaining and charismatic, but I found their attention offensive, so I shoooed them away.

You're such a queen.

 

[mrcockburn]

where did I backhand ISFJs? the only things I've said about them are that
1) they can get on my nerves when they're overlly passive
and
2) they make wonderful friends because they're loyal, forgiving and affectionate
PS: I seem like an ISFJ? if I were to name the type I see the least of in myself, that would probably be it

ISFJs are SJs. You've been carrying on about how SJs are close minded, how it's gotta suck to be them, how they're slow on the uptake, etc.

No need to play dumb.

 

[Thalassa]

I know an ISFJ who I think is smarter than Elfboy.