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  1. #51
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    If I want to play with EPs however, I know that I have to be willing to indulge their creative nature, but I also expect them to reciprocate on occasion. It's simply no good to have someone accuse me of being closed minded because they can't provide a solid and coherent argument; it's the kind of argument that wouldn't convince themselves if it is played back later - but you won't find them calling themselves closed minded when they reject it.
    I always feel like an experiment when you talk about EPs
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    I always feel like an experiment when you talk about EPs
    Every experience in life is just another data point.

  3. #53
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    I always feel like an experiment when you talk about EPs
    ahahaahahaha. "Watch the EP's as they converse with one another in their natural habitat."
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  4. #54
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Every experience in life is just another data point.
    whatever that means, I have no clue

    Can I get a hamster wheel ?
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  5. #55
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    the church, nazis... it's all the same.

    I once tried to form a club of independent free thinkers, I got around 200 people to join; only problem was noone ever came to any meeting :/
    LOL you want a drum roll to go with this routine?

  6. #56
    Aquaria mrcockburn's Avatar
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    It sounds obvious, but the best way to convince an SJ is to simply ask: "What would change your mind? What evidence or data would convince you?"

    Now they'll be forced to examine themselves, and either look like a low-IQ 4-year-old by shouting "Nothing!" (which I've had people do before, lol) or give you an answer - and you can do all possible to address that.
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  7. #57
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    It's a well attributed fallacy of some P types, especially the EP types, that simply stating their opinion will make another change their mind...

    Like seriously, bring substantial information and analysis to the table then people will change their mind if it is factual, otherwise J types will stick to their opinions.
    Exactly!
    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    I enjoy different perspectives. I'm an SJ. Oxymoron?

    I have noticed one ENFP on here change her perspective on SJs. So somebody's listening.

    But for the rest of the self proclaimed N types- I think SJ is a catch all for people who irritate them.
    +1
    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    That's part of it. Hard data has to be examined and compared to what has been previously validated, in order to make sure it matches up. This takes time.
    Exactly. It's not "time to process", it's "time to research". If this interaction happens...

    non-SJ: That's not true, THIS is true. Here's the logical reason why.
    SJ: Hmmm.
    *next day*
    SJ: Yeah, I guess you were right. Sorry about all that.

    ... then it wasn't because the SJ needed a day to process. Almost certainly that SJ went straight to a computer/library/wherever and did some research. But after the research, they're fully convinced. And often the research doesn't take long; in my case, usually all it takes is one article on Wikipedia or the New York Times.

    Typically, even with the flexible SJs I've known, there is a period of resistance where a new idea that contrasts with their prior held values is shoved back against... and then, if it doesn't just vanish, they'll start to consider it and perhaps change course if there's enough good information to warrant it. I've seen minds change even on things that ran completely counter to their prior ideas... but only if they get the right information and only if they have the time they need to vet it.
    I dislike the continued use of the word "time" on this thread - because it's misleading. The people who need time to sit and process things internally are generally not the SJs - they would probably be NFs. But I'm nitpicking; you're totally right about SJs needing factual details from trustworthy sources in order to change their minds.

    EDIT: more comments from the SJ's... we other types need to shut up a bit.
    Yeah, I commented earlier, and my post got ignored. (except for Marm and Jim, who had good things to say.)
    Quote Originally Posted by shortnsweet View Post
    Are you sure you are even typing SJ's correctly? If half the people are SJ's, and you don't like 80 percent of SJ's... Well, you do the math. SJ's are the closed minded ones??

    Edit: N's are known to be people who have a greater perspective and ability to see possibilities, yes. I've always thought of S's as equally likely to be open minded because many don't take anything for granted. Facts are believable, and they simply want to wait for more facts/ proof before making a judgment. Before coming here, I thought of S's as more likely to be religiously agnostic. (Not the bible belt SJ's that some talk about here), and N's to be more likely to just "believe" in something that isn't proven. J's in general being the one's to make strong convictions about things, and NJ's to be one's who believe something that possibly isn't true and make a strong conviction about it.

    Obviously, the above statement is not true always- (In fact, usually untrue.) The point is, I think that anyone can be closed minded, and any type can come to the same conclusion through different outlets. (If type exists at all.) So you can have SJ's seeing things from a billion different perspectives and coming to different (open or closed minded conclusions) just like everyone else.
    Excellent post. The bolded, especially.
    Quote Originally Posted by mrcockburn View Post
    It sounds obvious, but the best way to convince an SJ is to simply ask: "What would change your mind? What evidence or data would convince you?"

    Now they'll be forced to examine themselves, and either look like a low-IQ 4-year-old by shouting "Nothing!" (which I've had people do before, lol) or give you an answer - and you can do all possible to address that.
    And if you're talking about something factual (not value-based or moral), then 99% of the time they'll give you an answer. They'll have a tough time with the Fi stuff.
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  8. #58
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shortnsweet View Post
    Are you sure you are even typing SJ's correctly? If half the people are SJ's, and you don't like 80 percent of SJ's... Well, you do the math. SJ's are the closed minded ones??

    Edit: N's are known to be people who have a greater perspective and ability to see possibilities, yes. I've always thought of S's as equally likely to be open minded because many don't take anything for granted. Facts are believable, and they simply want to wait for more facts/ proof before making a judgment. Before coming here, I thought of S's as more likely to be religiously agnostic. (Not the bible belt SJ's that some talk about here), and N's to be more likely to just "believe" in something that isn't proven. J's in general being the one's to make strong convictions about things, and NJ's to be one's who believe something that possibly isn't true and make a strong conviction about it.

    Obviously, the above statement is not true always- (In fact, usually untrue.) The point is, I think that anyone can be closed minded, and any type can come to the same conclusion through different outlets. (If type exists at all.) So you can have SJ's seeing things from a billion different perspectives and coming to different (open or closed minded conclusions) just like everyone else.
    I can't stand 70% of people as a whole. to me, most people are low class, vulgar, unpleasant, irrational and dense, so saying that I can't stand 80% of SJs is not so biased. this may be a foreign concept to you (not because you're ESFP, but because you seem to be a people person)
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  9. #59
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    I totally disagree that any SJ will change their opinions for any reason. I think there are some SJ's who will still believe in heaven when the sky falls on them and kills their first-born child. I know SJ's who have been to-hell-and-back because of their beliefs and never changed a thing. (And this is with 80 million people telling them to change it for themselves and their kids). Some SJ's are SO resistant it is unbelievable.

    I know other SJ's who won't believe the news at all, or the court system, if it suits them. One, for instance, thinks cheating is wrong, but Bill Clinton is the most wonderful man walking. So, if I ask them, "well, what about Monica Lewinsky?", they will claim that it never happened, that Bill Clinton was framed.

    So you SJ's telling me that if I gather the right information and arguments to present, you will readily change your beliefs, imo, is ridiculous. I have not found one SJ who would listen to reason, agree with it, and then change their lives and beliefs because of it. (And they continue totally living according to belief when there is TONS of information out there telling them that what they are doing is wrong.) This doesn't mean I don't like SJ's; I just accept them for who they are.

    I know alot of SJ's, and some like to think they are open-minded to new ideas, but even with the best of them, you can give 'em some convincing arguments with excellent sources to back you up, and they will agree, but they aren't gonna budge irl. During the discussion, sure, they will be positive, but the next day, they will wake up, and do the exact same thing again according to old beliefs. They take no action on the information, even if it is sound. And this is what gets on my nerves so badly. LoL.

    It has nothing to do with how well you can present an argument. People are who they are. Even I as a P: once I have agreed that some sort of information is solid, it will be semi-difficult to convince me of otherwise. But if it's true, I will probably see it myself anyway. I have few social or traditional concerns.

    Basically, if you don't like SJ's because they are resistant, just give up and accept them as they are. Know what you know, but don't try to get them to believe you, or change them. It's pointless and it won't work. LoL..... At some point I learned not to care, and to allow them to be themselves. They are like a rock, steadfast and strong in their ways.

    Now, if there are SJ's who are "different" from the SJ's I have known, I'd be willing to SEE it. Telling me they are one way won't do the job, I have to SEE it happen. And as of yet, I have not. So yea, I'm a skeptic and not so easily convinced myself, but I'm nowhere near as resistant as any SJ I know. Someone prove me wrong.......

    I am talking the actual lifestyles they live. Sure, I know an SJ who drives a bug, has spiky hair, listens to the buzzcocks, etc. But when it comes to his "real" life, he's a christian and goes to church, and lives a very traditional lifestyle (4 kids, a wife who doesn't work, plays golf, watches sports), and his beliefs are in-line with social concerns (goes along with what everyone else is doing). I am talking the things that matter here and there's where you can see a real distinction between types, and THAT is where you know what they stand for. THERE'S where they don't budge. Converting a Christian to an atheist or convincing them to have sex when they don't believe in having sex before marriage is practically impossible. But an istp can change religions 4 times in a year, and be talked into trying a new activity in 10 minutes lol....... Now I have known SJ's who will delve into the realms of subcultures and deviances, of course, but in their daily lives, they are REALLY conservative and traditional. An ISTP lives there and is one of the few scouting it out, an SJ just visits basically when it's more mainstream to do so, and that's the difference. SJ's are much more mainstream, conservative, and traditional in their values, regardless, and they won't be convinced to live otherwise. Even the liberal ones I know who do delve into religion-changes, etc., are hard-pressed to change their beliefs concerning religion-changes lolol....They have been convinced of certain values from early-on, and even though these values seem to be more progressive, they are still mostly unchangeable.

    I think it's mostly about values, tried-and-true (traditional) methods that have always worked, lifestyle changes, religions (whether it be worshipping cows, Metallica, or Christ, it's still THEIR tradition and not easily changed), etc. The ones I know watch everyone else change these things while they remain the same, and when it comes time when everyone else is doing it and apparently it is the right thing to do, they change it, but not until then. Non-risky and like-a-rock. That's the way it was meant to be. They aren't meant to be ahead-of-the-curve, but behind it. I pretty much see them as holding-down-the-fort while the rest of us explore the frontiers. Somebody has to do it!

    End result is: An SJ or anyone else can SAY they do anything, but irl, their actions don't back up what they are saying they do. When an ISTP does make changes to their lifestyles based on information, that is when you know who they are. It takes a lot more pressure from outside sources for an SJ to make a change in action. Processing and learning information is not what it's all about, but action. Anyone can learn anything, it's what they do based on that information and how they use that information, that counts. Just my two cents.
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  10. #60
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    I can't stand 70% of people as a whole. to me, most people are low class, vulgar, unpleasant, irrational and dense
    Welcome to 2011. Get used to it! It will get much worse before it gets better LoL.
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