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  1. #41
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    I enjoy different perspectives. I'm an SJ. Oxymoron?

    I have noticed one ENFP on here change her perspective on SJs. So somebody's listening.

    But for the rest of the self proclaimed N types- I think SJ is a catch all for people who irritate them.
    Asskissing into the SJ castle... uahh that's disgusting
    That's like the phrases the nazi used back then: "some people have come to see what is right, but the others who havent are wrong."

    Imo it will be the holy day in a phillistine life, if one comes to recognize how many rights certain situation can have ..
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  2. #42
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post

    That's part of it. Hard data has to be examined and compared to what has been previously validated, in order to make sure it matches up. This takes time. SJs don't necessarily trust change and have to manage the risk, whereas NPs thrive on change and more typically "throw themselves on the currents."



    yes. This is why they make great actuaries/accountants and engineers, etc.



    I would agree that unwillingness to invest energy at someone else's expense is one reason why some SJs might dig in. I think it is reasonable to expect an SJ type to need some time to explore data and make sure it's solid; so usually if I have an issue with one, it's because I feel that the option was never seriously considered in the first place because it was threatening or inconvenient to them in some way, not because they needed time to process. (I've had a lot of experience, to my detriment, in that area... although there are those who rose to the occasion and diligently plowed through things.) The processing time is necessary, though; and the more concrete and quantifiable the data, the better. No loose/abstract connections.



    You seem more flexible than many I've known. Typically, even with the flexible SJs I've known, there is a period of resistance where a new idea that contrasts with their prior held values is shoved back against... and then, if it doesn't just vanish, they'll start to consider it and perhaps change course if there's enough good information to warrant it. I've seen minds change even on things that ran completely counter to their prior ideas... but only if they get the right information and only if they have the time they need to vet it.

    EDIT: more comments from the SJ's... we other types need to shut up a bit.
    I do agree that data has to be examined/validated prior to just accepting it. While Some SJs aren't interested in the change, some are and just want you to prove your point. If you get shook or break down in the process, they take it as you're not too sure of it yourself. Dumb & Shortsighted process? Yes. But it's all about the data.

    I wonder if it's due to age, experience, intelligence, or common sense? It's rare that I totally dismiss an idea. I give people the benefit of the doubt until they prove they have no idea what they're talking about. LOL. Then you lose credibility. I think learning type really helped as well.

    I grew up with 8 kids in a house. 8 totally different personalities. We had a ball. Although I will say my ENFP sister (16 months younger than I am) and ENTP (about 4 years younger than I) brother drove me up the wall when we were younger- that probably helped a lot too! LOL

  3. #43
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Asskissing into the SJ castle... uahh that's disgusting
    That's like the phrases the nazi used back then: "some people have come to see what is right, but the others who havent are wrong."

    Imo it will be the holy day in a phillistine life, if one comes to recognize how many rights certain situation can have ..
    And the church says "AMEN"

  4. #44
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    the church, nazis... it's all the same.

    I once tried to form a club of independent free thinkers, I got around 200 people to join; only problem was noone ever came to any meeting :/
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  5. #45
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Everyone is pretty closed minded at the end of the day.
    06/13 10:51:03 five sounds: you!!!
    06/13 10:51:08 shortnsweet: no you!!
    06/13 10:51:12 shortnsweet: go do your things and my things too!
    06/13 10:51:23 five sounds: oh hell naw
    06/13 10:51:55 shortnsweet: !!!!
    06/13 10:51:57 shortnsweet: (cries)
    06/13 10:52:19 RiftsWRX: You two are like furbies stuck in a shoe box

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  6. #46
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    you caught me I can't stand 80% of the SJs I know lol, but I at least want to understand them better so that I can make a more informed decision about which one's I don't like vs which one's I just don't understand. I suppose I believe in giving people a chance if I don't understand them
    Are you sure you are even typing SJ's correctly? If half the people are SJ's, and you don't like 80 percent of SJ's... Well, you do the math. SJ's are the closed minded ones??

    Edit: N's are known to be people who have a greater perspective and ability to see possibilities, yes. I've always thought of S's as equally likely to be open minded because many don't take anything for granted. Facts are believable, and they simply want to wait for more facts/ proof before making a judgment. Before coming here, I thought of S's as more likely to be religiously agnostic. (Not the bible belt SJ's that some talk about here), and N's to be more likely to just "believe" in something that isn't proven. J's in general being the one's to make strong convictions about things, and NJ's to be one's who believe something that possibly isn't true and make a strong conviction about it.

    Obviously, the above statement is not true always- (In fact, usually untrue.) The point is, I think that anyone can be closed minded, and any type can come to the same conclusion through different outlets. (If type exists at all.) So you can have SJ's seeing things from a billion different perspectives and coming to different (open or closed minded conclusions) just like everyone else.
    06/13 10:51:03 five sounds: you!!!
    06/13 10:51:08 shortnsweet: no you!!
    06/13 10:51:12 shortnsweet: go do your things and my things too!
    06/13 10:51:23 five sounds: oh hell naw
    06/13 10:51:55 shortnsweet: !!!!
    06/13 10:51:57 shortnsweet: (cries)
    06/13 10:52:19 RiftsWRX: You two are like furbies stuck in a shoe box

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  7. #47
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    When someone like an ISTJ habitually responds to every new idea, no matter how benign, with skepticism, then this is just a learned response pattern. And yes it does drive other people crazy, kind of like if I was always cracking my knuckles in your presence until you were finally tempted to break my fingers.
    Wait, surely ISTJs are not the only ones who treat new ideas with skepticism. That implies that Ne doms run around blindly accepting every statement that anyone tells them, which is clearly ridiculous. wth is wrong with skepticism anyway? You can't believe everything you hear....
    -end of thread-

  8. #48
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shortnsweet View Post
    Everyone is pretty closed minded at the end of the day.
    To me it would be nice that everybody just accepts the difference in others. If everybody would be like you yourself that would be boring aswell.

    The country in which I live is SJcentral and over the course of my life I've always had SJ friends. Infact some of my best friends I'ld type as such and I can safely say that there is no difference in intelligence, open-mindedness or whatsoever. The one and only real difference is that my intrests have mostly been of the intangible abstract sort or just plain uncommon, while the isfj buddy at work for example has concrete tangible intrests, like common intrests.

    My girlfriend and me went jogging yesterday, I did that at age 27 for the first time in my life and it felt weird, I got embarassed because of it. Nevertheless we tried it out cause we want to loose some pounds and we had fun ( tho I'ld prefer building my cnc machine instead of jogging anytime ) .

    To me the main difference is that little one, but I never thought in all my life that I am better than anyone. The only thing I wish for is to meet someone one day who has similiar intrests like I have. I havent had that luck yet and when I am mad at SJs sometimes, its only because of that. But that is my own issue
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  9. #49
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    To me it would be nice that everybody just accepts the difference in others. If everybody would be like you yourself that would be boring aswell.

    The country in which I live is SJcentral and over the course of my life I've always had SJ friends. Infact some of my best friends I'ld type as such and I can safely say that there is no difference in intelligence, open-mindedness or whatsoever. The one and only real difference is that my intrests have mostly been of the intangible abstract sort or just plain uncommon, while the isfj buddy at work for example has concrete tangible intrests, like common intrests.

    My girlfriend and me went jogging yesterday, I did that at age 27 for the first time in my life and it felt weird, I got embarassed because of it. Nevertheless we tried it out cause we want to loose some pounds and we had fun ( tho I'ld prefer building my cnc machine instead of jogging anytime ) .

    To me the main difference is that little one, but I never thought in all my life that I am better than anyone. The only thing I wish for is to meet someone one day who has similiar intrests like I have. I havent had that luck yet and when I am mad at SJs sometimes, its only because of that. But that is my own issue

    Agreed. I'm mad at a lot of people sometimes.

    Nobody can be 100 percent open minded all of the time. Every thought that everyone has is a thought that someone else probably had at some time. Every new idea is something recycled from something else. We're humans, we use little of our brains. Most of our thought processes are just going in circles. (Whether it's a "common", linear, "boring" circle, or a weird and quirky circle.) We're mostly just closed circuts except for the small percentage of time that we're being challenged by a source.
    06/13 10:51:03 five sounds: you!!!
    06/13 10:51:08 shortnsweet: no you!!
    06/13 10:51:12 shortnsweet: go do your things and my things too!
    06/13 10:51:23 five sounds: oh hell naw
    06/13 10:51:55 shortnsweet: !!!!
    06/13 10:51:57 shortnsweet: (cries)
    06/13 10:52:19 RiftsWRX: You two are like furbies stuck in a shoe box

    My Nohari
    My Johari
    by sns.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Wait, surely ISTJs are not the only ones who treat new ideas with skepticism. That implies that Ne doms run around blindly accepting every statement that anyone tells them, which is clearly ridiculous. wth is wrong with skepticism anyway? You can't believe everything you hear....
    It's about presenting information and facts in a convincing and fully comprehensive way.

    It is very easy for those 'stable stable' J's to present information in a natural and consistent stone which others find convincing. The extroverted perceiver is pretty likely to get half way and then present something entirely different and the listener just goes 'You what?' sometimes it comes down to just not 'appearing' sincere because of this tendency.

    As a child I taught to present one information at a time in a concise and ordered way because I had real difficulties with doing so (hey I'm an Ni dom whats new, sic. see Kalach/Victor). On the one hand many people find this offensive or 'inhibiting' because it closes off whatever they were doing and forces them to indulge in the facts upon the table. On the other hand many people find it comforting and give it respect.

    If I want to play with EPs however, I know that I have to be willing to indulge their creative nature, but I also expect them to reciprocate on occasion. It's simply no good to have someone accuse me of being closed minded because they can't provide a solid and coherent argument; it's the kind of argument that wouldn't convince themselves if it is played back later - but you won't find them calling themselves closed minded when they reject it.

    To give the ultimate ExxP idiom it's conclusion:

    Give the people what they WANT!

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